New driver proposals ??

[ROG]

[zadocbrown]

Sounds like a step in the right direction. As with all such schemes, it will stand or fall on the effectiveness of it's implementation.

[jont]

Sounds like a step in the right direction. As with all such schemes, it will stand or fall on the effectiveness of it's implementation.

While the improvement in training is a good step, I'm not keen on his attack on drivers - the [Accidents] "They do not happen by chance. Far too many are caused by people deliberately flouting the rules". I thought most accidents were due to momentary inattention rather than flouting of the rules - indeed I'm sure if the majority were caused by flouting the rules he would have said so, rather than using the phrase "too many". (for instance wrt speeding - the latest DFT figures show more drivers were killed within the limit than exceeding it). It sounds like a prelude of an excuse for more punitive measure against motorists who don't comply with the rules - which are often are arbitrary and enforced for the sake of enforcement rather than with applied common sense.

I also wonder if the recent changes in direction by IAM are trying to align themselves with the DSA on a more commercial footing to provide this training rather than relying on the existing volunteer network.

[ROG]

I believe he is correct in his take of the word accident.

It is not an accident if the situation could have been avoided by one or more of the drivers involved.

[daz6215]

(for instance wrt speeding - the latest DFT figures show more drivers were killed within the limit than exceeding it). .

Inappropriate speed perhaps?

[waremark]

The devil will be in the detail, and really there is nothing in this statement beyond what was in the consultation document. I greatly welcome pre-driver training but what does 'bankable' mean and how will it be fitted into the National Curriculum? How will ADIs be retrained to deliver different training, and will it really be any better? What incentive will there be for further training, and when will any changes be implemented? Do we have confidence in the DSA as drivers of improvement in this area? I remember that their last major initiative was the HPT which I thought was a good idea at the time but which perhaps through poor implementation has failed to reduce new driver accident levels.

[Rabiedmushroom]

Perhaps the overhaul should include a number of skill modules? I.e. more driving at speed (NSL) on A-roads, faster corners and dual carriageways, plus at night. Typical hazardous conditions where youngsters prang their cars! Am I right thinking some Scandanavian countries have learning units like that?

I know PassPlus may address some of these, along with motorway driving, but many kids don't bother with the extra non-compulsary training.

And it still doesn't address all the other (older) nutters that already hold a standard licence, but could do with a refresher

[waremark]

I have heard that Pass Plus does not reduce accident rates. If so, making the PP modules compulsory may not do so either.

And do youngsters crash on DCs or motorways?

IMO, attitudes are far more of an issue than skills. That is why I am particularly keen on changes which offer a chance of improving attitudes. I am optimistic that pre-driving and compulsory post solo training may both help. However, in view of the apparent failure of both the HPT and PP to improve matters I should like to see any new idea successfully piloted before being introduced nationwide.

[TripleS]

Perhaps the overhaul should include a number of skill modules? I.e. more driving at speed (NSL) on A-roads, faster corners and dual carriageways, plus at night. Typical hazardous conditions where youngsters prang their cars! Am I right thinking some Scandanavian countries have learning units like that?

I know PassPlus may address some of these, along with motorway driving, but many kids don't bother with the extra non-compulsary training.

And it still doesn't address all the other (older) nutters that already hold a standard licence, but could do with a refresher

True.

Best wishes all,
Dave - an older nutter.

[zadocbrown]

Trouble with pass plus was that hardly anyone got round to taking it, instructors didn't really know what to do with it, and it tended to amount to a few extra lessons driving round, ticking boxes to get the insurance discount.

I think the idea of extra optional training very soon after passing the test is always going to be one of those things new drivers pay lip service to but don't actually get around to doing. At the end of the day, most new drivers are at a stage where they want to exercise their newly aquired freedom, not put themselves through more of the same i.e. someone in the car telling them what to do.

In terms of their learning they've been through a period of heavily directed learning and what they need is time to consolidate that in their own way. That's why I'd prefer to see further training directed at drivers who've had some regular driving experience which they can reflect on and use as a solid base for improvement. As they say, when the pupil is ready the teacher will appear. The opposite is also true. Generally, people learn when they see a reason for doing so, not when it's convenient in the eyes of the state.........

I think some attention to 'attitude', preferably not using that rather loaded term, is in order. But changing attitudes is hard, hard, hard. Putting in an extra ticky box for instructors/examiners won't work because by the time they see the pupil, attitudes are well ingrained. Most ADIs are hardly qualified to deal with deep psychological issues, and if they were there wouldn't be time on the number of lessons people are willing to pay for.

One thing I've noticed is that some of the worst pupils have clearly picked up their poor attitudes and bad habits from other drivers. Not surprisingly, young apprentice builders and such like are often particularly difficult..... Interestingly, they often recognise the danger in other people's driving, but nonetheless end up displaying similar behaviour themselves.

If we want to change attitudes we need to start with younger children. Less palatable to most people is that we also need to improve the behaviour of people already on the road. Otherwise we simply end up giving out mixed messages, which is fatal. The example of immediate older family/freinds usually carries more weight than the preaching of teachers/instructors/politicians etc.

[daz6215]

In reality people start learning to drive at a very young age, normally when watching their mother and father, If the parent is an aggressive driver who speed's everywhere then little Johnny sitting next to his role model will be more inclined to think that behaviour is the social norm and culturally acceptable. If society wants the roads to change then it must start with showing a good example to our kids who will be the next generation sharing the roads with us. We need some sort of pre driving education into schools to change some of the ingrained beliefs some of these people harbour from watching and listening to bad parents before they even set foot into a car so the driving instructor can start with a clean or cleaner slate.

[Angus]

I greatly welcome pre-driver training but ... how will it be fitted into the National Curriculum?

Comsidering that there aren't enough hours to teach all the existing subjects in the national curriculum at present, how might driver education be included in other subjects?

History - Boudicca's chariot had blades fitted to the wheels. Discuss how this affected road safety.

Mathematics - Jonny is driving at 60mph in a residential area. What is his stopping distance in an emergency?

English - Either up level rules 1 to 10 of the Highway Code or re-write them as blank verse.

[ROG]

I greatly welcome pre-driver training but ... how will it be fitted into the National Curriculum?

Comsidering that there aren't enough hours to teach all the existing subjects in the national curriculum at present, how might driver education be included in other subjects?

History - Boudicca's chariot had blades fitted to the wheels. Discuss how this affected road safety.

Mathematics - Jonny is driving at 60mph in a residential area. What is his stopping distance in an emergency?

English - Either up level rules 1 to 10 of the Highway Code or re-write them as blank verse.

The school leaving age is due to rise to 17 so that SHOULD create space for this.

After all, one country manages it - USA Drivers Ed

[kfae8959]

After all, one country manages it - USA Drivers Ed

It's true that the US manages to fit drivers' education into the curriculum, but you'd be hard pressed to make the case that its inclusion improves drivers' safety so as to make this a model we'd want to follow. Many States have been teaching driving skills in school since the 1930s, and ought to have the course well developed, yet collision rates in the US are appallingly high in comparison with those of other similar countries, as are KSI rates among young adults. One campaign running in the US at the moment has the strap-line, "you need to have the driving talk", putting the onus back on parents.

I'll stop before I go off-topic...

David