ADUK Archive

Just read this on the ABD website.

Sinister EU Plans to Spy on Every Car
The EU is planning to install sinister spy devices in all new cars that will constantly transmit the location, speed, and heading of the car to a central database. 1
ABD spokesman Nigel Humphries said:
"This nightmarish level of intrusion into people's private lives was something even George Orwell did not imagine. It is something the secret police of communist and fascist countries would have relished, so why is it being proposed for a supposedly 'free' Europe?"
Officially known as the Cooperative Vehicle-Infrastructure Systems (CVIS) project, the plan is being supported by some car manufacturers and some telecomms companies. Why some car manufacturers are aiding and abetting such government spying in these times of financial difficulties is unclear, it is certainly going to discourage anyone in their right mind from buying a new car. Involved telecomms companies will, as usual, simply want to make money with scant regard to the consequences to society, including their own shareholders, employees, and customers.

The project is believed to be dependent upon the EU's hugely expensive 'Galileo' satellite navigation system 2. Although the world already has a perfectly good satellite navigation system, it is run by the USA, and that hurts the EU`s ego, so they`re spending 3 billion euros on their own (at the last count — it's already 2 billion euros over budget). To recoup the cost of this you can be sure they intend to use it to introduce road charging and blanket speed enforcement. It is also tied in with a massive IT project that will link traffic lights and motorway gantries.

ABD Chairman Brian Gregory said
"We all read frequent stories in the press about the level of government competence regarding IT projects and the safekeeping of personal data. With this project being Europe-wide it will be a dozen times worse, and in these times of financial crisis only a fool or a fanatic would refuse to scrap the whole idea immediately."

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

Two thoughts:

Why isn't the IAM supporting this idea?

On one hand we are rumoured to be encouraged to scrap old polluting cars and buy new, less polluting cars and then they introduce a scheme like this which will encourage us to keep old, un-monitored cars on the road

As it's akin to being personally 'tagged' then it wil never happen - it would be against human rights and privacy laws.

ROG wrote:As it's akin to being personally 'tagged' then it wil never happen - it would be against human rights and privacy laws.

It's not being personally tagged is it ?

It doesn't tell them who is driving.

The Guardian wrote a more balanced and informative report. It appears the privacy aspect will be considered by the 'European Data Protection Supervisor'.

It isn't the 'good' use of such technololgy that is of most concern to me, it is the almost inevitable 'bad' use.

vonhosen wrote:It's not being personally tagged is it ?

It doesn't tell them who is driving.

Oh, that's OK then. All my concerns are neutered in a trice.

I mean, really, why on earth would anyone be concerned at all by the ability for any governmental entity to be able to monitor their travel for the flimsiest of reasons or (similarly) require them to lodge travel plans for any trip outside the country in advance of departure?

The free world used to gasp in amazement at the controls imposed on travel in the former USSR and China, among others. No longer. It seems that we'll have overtaken them in next to no time.

regards
P.

Porker wrote:

vonhosen wrote:It's not being personally tagged is it ?

It doesn't tell them who is driving.

Oh, that's OK then. All my concerns are neutered in a trice.

I mean, really, why on earth would anyone be concerned at all by the ability for any governmental entity to be able to monitor their travel for the flimsiest of reasons or (similarly) require them to lodge travel plans for any trip outside the country in advance of departure?

The free world used to gasp in amazement at the controls imposed on travel in the former USSR and China, among others. No longer. It seems that we'll have overtaken them in next to no time.

regards
P.

Their travel ?
But who is traveling ?
They can monitor your traveling out of the country, they can't monitor 'your' traveling in the country, because they don't know it's you traveling.

They know to whom the car is registered. On the basis of the current arrangements for cameras, it's then the registered keeper's problem to try to demonstrate who was actually driving and/or that it wasn't actually their vehicle that the system noted. We can do without this, thanks.

P.

Porker wrote:They know to whom the car is registered. On the basis of the current arrangements for cameras, it's then the registered keeper's problem to try to demonstrate who was actually driving and/or that it wasn't actually their vehicle that the system noted. We can do without this, thanks.

P.

You mean the owners have to name the driver where the vehicle is suspected of committing certain offences.
That's no different to now.

The system as proposed still isn't tracking individuals.

vonhosen wrote:Their travel ?
But who is traveling ?
They can monitor your traveling out of the country, they can't monitor 'your' traveling in the country, because they don't know it's you traveling.

I am the only person insured to drive my car. It would not take a genius to work out who was the driver of my car....

For the vast majority of cars you would be able to at leats narrow travel down to a member of a given household.

Advertisers would pay serious money for data like that. Hmmmm.... now there's an idea, perhaps we could stop paying taxes and just let the government sell all our personal data to advertisers to raise revenue instead.

No wait that already happens (electoral register is just one example) and we still get to pay taxes.

michael769 wrote:

vonhosen wrote:Their travel ?
But who is traveling ?
They can monitor your traveling out of the country, they can't monitor 'your' traveling in the country, because they don't know it's you traveling.

I am the only person insured to drive my car. It would not take a genius to work out who was the driver of my car....

For the vast majority of cars you would be able to at leats narrow travel down to a member of a given household.

Advertisers would pay serious money for data like that. Hmmmm.... now there's an idea, perhaps we could stop paying taxes and just let the government sell all our personal data to advertisers to raise revenue instead.

No wait that already happens (electoral register is just one example) and we still get to pay taxes.

And how many people can drive other people's cars quite legally on insurance that isn't regsistered to that car ?
If your intention is to track an individual's movements from a car, you need to know exactly who is driving it.

It may well be about road pricing etc etc, but it's not about tracking every individual's movements, because it's not an accuarte way of doing it.

This may well be taking it to the extreme, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that this sort of technology could be used to track the movement of the individual. It would only require the mandatory carrying of identity cards fitted with a chip holding the individuals personal details. If it could be tracked by satelite, and I dare say that it's possible, the government could track the movement of every individual in the country.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

fungus wrote:This may well be taking it to the extreme, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that this sort of technology could be used to track the movement of the individual. It would only require the mandatory carrying of identity cards fitted with a chip holding the individuals personal details. If it could be tracked by satelite, and I dare say that it's possible, the government could track the movement of every individual in the country.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

Of course tracking of individuals is possible if you want to imbed chips in everybody from birth, or as you say enforced carrying of trackable ID cards, but that's not what is being suggested.

vonhosen wrote:

fungus wrote:This may well be taking it to the extreme, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that this sort of technology could be used to track the movement of the individual. It would only require the mandatory carrying of identity cards fitted with a chip holding the individuals personal details. If it could be tracked by satelite, and I dare say that it's possible, the government could track the movement of every individual in the country.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

Of course tracking of individuals is possible if you want to imbed chips in everybody from birth, or as you say enforced carrying of trackable ID cards, but that's not what is being suggested.

It isn't necessary to track the movements of an individual to invade their privacy.

If the state introduced technology to monitor and record the time, length and destination of all phone calls made in the UK most of us would feel that was an invasion of our privacy.

The fact that the state would not know the identity of the caller on the basis that people other than the account holder can use the account holder's phone would be little consolation.



I am sure it is possible to create technology that doesn't identify the registration of a vehicle when it communicates with other vehicles or the infrastructure and that would be the best way forward in my view.

The Police might be disappointed as such data may prove useful in detecting serious crime but we have to balance our rights to privacy with then need to prevent crime.

MGF wrote:

vonhosen wrote:

fungus wrote:This may well be taking it to the extreme, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that this sort of technology could be used to track the movement of the individual. It would only require the mandatory carrying of identity cards fitted with a chip holding the individuals personal details. If it could be tracked by satelite, and I dare say that it's possible, the government could track the movement of every individual in the country.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

Of course tracking of individuals is possible if you want to imbed chips in everybody from birth, or as you say enforced carrying of trackable ID cards, but that's not what is being suggested.

It isn't necessary to track the movements of an individual to invade their privacy.

I didn't say it was.

I just said that you aren't tracking individuals (as is suggested) with what is proposed.