Mini roundabout confusion

[x-Sonia-x]

When I was learning to drive my instructor told me not to worry about markings on road at mini roundabouts, as long as you give way to right you can drive straight over them. Since passing my test I have been informed that it is illegal and you can incur 3 points on your licence for it. So I now go round them

Last night my daughter had driving lesson - same instructor as me - he told her same, to trundle straight over them . Now problem I have is, I obviously dont want to go against what her instructor tells her but if its illegal I dont want her doing it either

I looked at highway code and it says you 'must' go round the markings, does that mean it is illegal and you could get points for it?

[Gareth]

When I was learning to drive my instructor told me not to worry about markings on road at mini roundabouts, as long as you give way to right you can drive straight over them. Since passing my test I have been informed that it is illegal and you can incur 3 points on your licence for it.

It used to be that the law said you should pass in the direction of the arrows, which left enough wriggle room for people to conclude that as long as priority was correctly observed, it was safe and other drivers wouldn't be confused then the paint could be ignored. I remember this interpretation being advised by a PC1 officer at the Reading RoSPA lectures in the early 90s.

At some point the wording was changed to how it is currently stated, with the idea that if you can go around then you must, however if it is impossible for your vehicle to avoid going over the paint then you won't be found to be at fault nor will you be penalised. I imagine that there was a perceived problem of drivers playing fast and loose with the second two criteria I mentioned above.

[ROG]

same instructor as me - he told her same, to trundle straight over them

Ask the instructor - what is the DSA examiners view on this?

If stil not happy then go to DSA test station and ask a DSA examiner

[fungus]

ROG wrote,

[quote]
Ask the instructor - what is the DSA examiners view on this?

If stil not happy then go to DSA test station and ask a DSA examiner[/quote]

A DSA examiner would take the view that if it is possible and safe to pass around the centre marking then it must be done. After all, if you break the law on test, eg, not stop at a stop line, then the examiner would have no option but to fail the candidate. This would be marked as a failure to observe road signs and road markings. However, to give an example where passing over the centre of a mini rab would be necessary for safety is this situation that happened to an ex pupil on a test before I taught him.

Imagine this. A staggered junction, left then right with a mini rab on each junction. On approach to the first roundabout he was given the direction to follow the road ahead then turn right second exit at the second roundabout. The approach to both rabs have two lanes. The first is marked left lane ahead and left. Right hand lane ahead. The two lanes continue on the other side of the first rab as it approaches the second rab, marked left lane ahead, right lane, right turn. The candidate took the right hand lane on approach to the first roundabout which would put him into the correct lane for the next roundabout. As he emerged, a driver to his left emrged at the same time. This driver straight lined forcing him to go over the rab, something he was reluctant to do, in fact the examiner took action by steering the car right to avoid a collision. Braking was not an option as a van had followed him out onto the roundabout. He failed his test. The examiner said that it was a situation where driving over the painted area was necessary.

My advice would be. Unless you have a situation like the one I have just described, or are driving a vehicle that's incapable of passing around the painted area, you MUST drive around it.

[martine]

Your instructor is plain wrong...the 'must' means it's a legal requirement (as opposed to 'should' which is best practice).

How you confront the instructor in a diplomatic way is more of a problem...but I feel he does need to questioned as he's giving wrong advice.

[hir]

When I was learning to drive my instructor told me not to worry about markings on road at mini roundabouts, as long as you give way to right you can drive straight over them. Since passing my test I have been informed that it is illegal and you can incur 3 points on your licence for it.

It used to be that the law said you should pass in the direction of the arrows, which left enough wriggle room for people to conclude that as long as priority was correctly observed, it was safe and other drivers wouldn't be confused then the paint could be ignored. I remember this interpretation being advised by a PC1 officer at the Reading RoSPA lectures in the early 90s.

At some point the wording was changed to how it is currently stated, with the idea that if you can go around then you must, however if it is impossible for your vehicle to avoid going over the paint then you won't be found to be at fault nor will you be penalised. I imagine that there was a perceived problem of drivers playing fast and loose with the second two criteria I mentioned above.

Gareth is absolutely correct on the legal position.

However, it often happens that when the authorities attempt to draft the law so precisely it often has unintended consequences. On a number of occasions I have approached a mini-roundabout intending to go straight ahead (second exit), but as I've arrived at the roundabout so has another vehicle to my left at the first exit. As I deflect my course to the left to go around the painted area, as required by law, the vehicle waiting at the first exit has mis-interpreted my deflected course as an intention on my part to take the first exit and has then consequently started to pull out in front of me. This is then followed by a slamming on of brakes by the other vehicle's driver and a glowering look from him/her as much as to say... "why did you change your mind at the last minute, I thought you were going to turn left?"

It is very much a case of me not doing what the other driver was expecting me to do... straight across the paint if I'm going straight-on, deflect to my left if I'm turning left.

I've now devised a strategy for the above situation which involves a significant reduction in speed coupled with a less pronounced deflection to the left. I regard this as being a case of... "moving the vehicle to a place of safety", albeit on a little piece of illegally occupied white paint.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I was very nearly overtaken when turning right at a mini r/a today. The r/a in question requires a very significant deviation to the left in order to go round it, and the chap behind was in no mood to do anything of the sort. I cut the roundabout a little to make it clear to him that I was actually turning right, as per my signal, not going straight ahead as he seemed to assume from my initial swing to the left. It's annoying that not only do you apparently look a fool to such people, but that in being legal, you have to spend half your time watching that they don't ram you...

[x-Sonia-x]

as long as priority was correctly observed, it was safe and other drivers wouldn't be confused then the paint could be ignored. I remember this interpretation being advised by a PC1 officer at the Reading RoSPA lectures in the early 90s.

This is exactly what I was told by my ADi. When the wording was changed surely he should know about it ?

How you confront the instructor in a diplomatic way is more of a problem...but I feel he does need to questioned as he's giving wrong advice.

mmmmm......very difficult, dont really fancy doing that meself but if I dont countless others will be mis-informed.

It's annoying that not only do you apparently look a fool to such people, but that in being legal, you have to spend half your time watching that they don't ram you

It shouldnt be that just advanced drivers drive legally, but in fairness if learners are taught to drive straight ahead then thats what they expect others to do. its quite a grey area really. I did fail driving test no4 for positoning on mini roundabouts, think I understand now why I failed that one

[ExadiNigel]

This was raised a while back at one of our RoSPA meetings where we had an examiner there taking questions. His reply was along the lines of...

The sign for a mini roundabout is a blue circle (a positive instruction - telling you something you must do). The white arrows take it further in thta it is telling you that you must go round the roundabout.

If the sign isn't there then, perhaps, the roundabout is fair game to go over (and I can think of one 'mini-roundabout' in Swindon that doesn't have a sign, it doesn't have any roads off to the side either!).

In my experience, I have found the DSA are usually happy provided some attempt has been made to go round the roundabout, they tend not to worry if the back wheels go over some of the paint, though this could vary between test centres & individual examiners.

When pupils go over them I remind them that they are roundabouts and not speed bumps!

Nigel

[Gareth]

This is exactly what I was told by my ADi. When the wording was changed surely he should know about it ?

There's so many minor changes to wording that may or may not be significant that's it's probably very difficult for even an expert to be completely au fait with the laws as they stand today.

This particular change had passed me by even after I had notionally become an advanced driver. It's hard to have full knowledge unless you are particularly looking for it, but in this case I was. I'd previously had a discussion about this point, and had gone to the trouble of looking it up in the library of my nearest major city - you had to in those days - and when the topic came up again I had another look to find that it had changed.

[x-Sonia-x]

This is exactly what I was told by my ADi. When the wording was changed surely he should know about it ?

There's so many minor changes to wording that may or may not be significant that's it's probably very difficult for even an expert to be completely au fait with the laws as they stand today.

This particular change had passed me by even after I had notionally become an advanced driver. It's hard to have full knowledge unless you are particularly looking for it, but in this case I was. I'd previously had a discussion about this point, and had gone to the trouble of looking it up in the library of my nearest major city - you had to in those days - and when the topic came up again I had another look to find that it had changed.

Now I will apologise but im going to get on me soap box and have a lil rant.......you have just said you had to go 'looking' for the information you needed. That is sooooooo wrong. When you think 95% - probably even more - of the population only ever have any tuition from an ADi, and thats approx 50 hours, in their whole lifetime. None of them are going to go looking for information and therefore will drive for the rest of their life based on this initial tuition. Now im not blaming ADi's, they are not a bottomless pit of knowledge, but I do blame the system. Its wrong, in the first year of my driving I could probably pick up on half a dozen things that are different to how I was taught ...rant over

[TripleS]

I was very nearly overtaken when turning right at a mini r/a today. The r/a in question requires a very significant deviation to the left in order to go round it, and the chap behind was in no mood to do anything of the sort. I cut the roundabout a little to make it clear to him that I was actually turning right, as per my signal, not going straight ahead as he seemed to assume from my initial swing to the left. It's annoying that not only do you apparently look a fool to such people, but that in being legal, you have to spend half your time watching that they don't ram you...

Another problem can arise when you try to do the right thing, i.e. go round the mini-roundabout to make a right turn without running over the paint, and find you're coming close to clipping the nose of the vehicle that's waiting at the previous exit.

I still think these things should be treated as diagrammatic, and merely showing that normal roundabout priorities should be respected, and the requirement to keep off the paint should be abandoned. There is no need for it and it seems to lead to more trouble if you try to comply.

BTW, how do I put up a link to a google maps picture of a particular mini-roundabout? Not knowing how to do that, all I can say is that it is at the junction of Scalby Road and Stepney Road in Scarborough. I reckon there are one or two problems with that one!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

BTW, how do I put up a link to a google maps picture of a particular mini-roundabout? Not knowing how to do that, all I can say is that it is at the junction of Scalby Road and Stepney Road in Scarborough.

You mean here?

If you want to see how I did it, quote my message as if to reply and look for the opening and closing url tags, (enclosed in square brackets). Google Maps provides a link to the particular view and I copied and pasted it into the opening url tag.

[TripleS]

BTW, how do I put up a link to a google maps picture of a particular mini-roundabout? Not knowing how to do that, all I can say is that it is at the junction of Scalby Road and Stepney Road in Scarborough.

You mean here?

If you want to see how I did it, quote my message as if to reply and look for the opening and closing url tags, (enclosed in square brackets). Google Maps provides a link to the particular view and I copied and pasted it into the opening url tag.

Yes, thanks Gareth; that's the one.

Cie very kindly sent me a PM explaining how to do it, but when I tried following the instructions (and as an experiment pasted the stuff into a Word document) it came up with this:

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&amp;source=s_q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=scalby+road&amp;sll=54.26611,-0.396895&amp;sspn=0.007832,0.022724&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Scalby+Rd,+Scarborough,+North+Yorkshire+YO12,+United+Kingdom&amp;ll=54.29623,-0.44147&amp;spn=0.000979,0.00284&amp;t=k&amp;z=19&amp;output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&amp;source=embed&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=scalby+road&amp;sll=54.26611,-0.396895&amp;sspn=0.007832,0.022724&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Scalby+Rd,+Scarborough,+North+Yorkshire+YO12,+United+Kingdom&amp;ll=54.29623,-0.44147&amp;spn=0.000979,0.00284&amp;t=k&amp;z=19" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

Clearly I've done something wrong again. I'll have to come back to this later.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Cie]

Yeah, my bad, use the first link on the google maps page, not the second as I suggested. What a muppett