Why limit handling?

[martine]

Having never done any 'proper' limit handling training (apart from skid-pan) I wonder what people's views were of the benefits in practice for pure road driving?

As you can guess by the question I'm not completely convinced of it's worth but hey...I speak from a position of ignorance (don't say: "as usual" please!).

[x-Sonia-x]

Well im actually more ignorant than you Martin as I dont even know what 'limit handling is'

[7db]

In case you missed it, the limit came considerably closer over this last week.

I was delighted to have at least some experience of limit handling when I drove up a road covered in sheet ice and broke traction at around 10 mph trying to take a corner.

[GS]

I think a lot depends on a driver's previous experience and what they look to gain from a 'limit handling course'.

I had quite a bit experience before I took such a course some years ago. With hindsight, whilst I can't say that I did not learn anything on the course, I can say that what I did learn did not justify the cost of the course. I accept that if I had been interested in learning how to go around corners faster or track driving the course would have possibly been of more benefit to me but as I wasn't interested in these things I think it was a total waste of money.

[GJD]

Well I've not done much myself so after some experience my views may change, but for me I think the reasons are:

It sounds like fun
I'm want to know more about how tyres work
I want more confidence and understanding about how my car handles

They are all personal preferences and won't necessarily apply to everyone, but it's the last one that really applies to road driving. I don't intend to habitually drive around the roads on the wrong side of the grip limit, but at the moment I don't really know where the the limit is, what it feels like, or what sort of errors might take me closer than I intended and how to avoid or correct them. Learning that is what's relevant to road driving for me.

Gavin

[TripleS]

Those who say we need to know how our car handles at the limit, should recognise that we need to do another limit handling course every time we change our car. I wouldn't spend money on limit handling courses.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[martine]

Thanks for your responses.

I agree it would be fun (esp. on someone else's tyres!) but what about the counter-arguments of:

a) a few sessions on an airfied with an instructor won't be nearly enough practice to make it instinctive should it be needed on the road 6 months later.

b) isn't it better to keep well away from the limits on the road...so much so that the chances of accidentally stepping over the limit are tiny in practice?

[crr003]

Thanks for your responses.

I agree it would be fun (esp. on someone else's tyres!) but what about the counter-arguments of:

a) a few sessions on an airfied with an instructor won't be nearly enough practice to make it instinctive should it be needed on the road 6 months later.

b) isn't it better to keep well away from the limits on the road...so much so that the chances of accidentally stepping over the limit are tiny in practice?

What about things like emergency lane changes? I'd include under "limit handling". You can be very happy driving well within your and the car's limits, and then, one day, you'll need to change lanes abruptly; maybe.
It might have been nice to try it a few times to understand how much/little steering is required etc?
Before you hit the deer or the central reservation?

PS - #1 would mean closing down all skid pans too?

[TripleS]

Thanks for your responses.

I agree it would be fun (esp. on someone else's tyres!) but what about the counter-arguments of:

a) a few sessions on an airfied with an instructor won't be nearly enough practice to make it instinctive should it be needed on the road 6 months later.

b) isn't it better to keep well away from the limits on the road...so much so that the chances of accidentally stepping over the limit are tiny in practice?

To my mind the best investment is learning how to keep out of trouble, and I would say you're already doing that pretty well.

I have known one or two people who could throw cars about in public roads driving - hanging the tail out on bends at fairly high speed - on both wet and dry roads, and that was car handling skill of a very high order, but they didn't get that by going on limit handling courses. They did it by careful experiments, approaching the limit bit by bit and feeling their way as they went, developing their understanding of what actions were needed at each stage, and then practising the corrective techniques. I never got that far: I contented myself with learning to keep comfortably away from the limit.

IMHO you are reaching the right conclusion about this, Martin. It wouldn't be money well spent.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[7db]

What's the trade-off you're making?

Is it better or not better to have another tool in the box, imperfect though it may be from a bit of practice. You don't have to use it if you don't want to. Clearly better.

The only question you have to answer does that better-ness justify the nastiness (cost, time, attitude degradation etc).

[GJD]

I should reiterate that I've not done much in the way of limit handling so I'm speculating (and thereby, not helping much with your original questionm maybe ), but FWIW...

a) a few sessions on an airfied with an instructor won't be nearly enough practice to make it instinctive should it be needed on the road 6 months later.

While your handling skills, which presumably won't reach the level of drifting god anyway in just a few sessions, might detoriorate over time, perhaps any ability you learn to feel or detect when you are approaching the limit would stay with you better.

b) isn't it better to keep well away from the limits on the road...so much so that the chances of accidentally stepping over the limit are tiny in practice?

But where is the limit? How far away am I from it really? Depends on what you want I suppose but I wouldn't want to unnecessarily curb my enthusiasm when a bit more skill and knowledge might enable me to safely and confidently drive a little less conservatively.

Gavin

[JamesAllport]

Limit handling training (in my case most recently with Don Palmer http://www.donpalmer.co.uk) helped my road driving by:

(1) Reinforcing how far I usually am from the limit of grip and so giving me the confidence to use the power properly in corners, to the huge betterment of my cornering;

(2) Demonstrated graphically how much room I needed to "catch" a big skid on the proving ground, and so reinforced my determination to stay away from the limit of grip on road, so my planning's improved;

(3) Saving my life and that of my 2 year old son last week when the car in front of me lost control on an ice covered roundabout and spun back towards us. My training meant I was slow enough, and my steering was good enough, to miss him (just!); Both I and the other driver were doing about 5mph, incidentally so this was hardly hooning...

(4) My steering is much smoother and more accurate because I've reinforced the skills of looking a long way ahead and looking exactly where I want the car to go on the proving ground at high speed. When you translate that to on road speeds it makes you phenomenally smooth by comparison with my previous standard.

(5)It was enormous, laugh out loud, fun. And I think that matters.

(6) All the best road drivers I have ever sat beside have agreed on how valuable they found it. I respect their opinions.

James

[stefan einz]

I am about to embark on a serious effort to improve my limit handling skills over the next year, so this is a pertinent question for me.

I have already received training on ice, at MIRA, at Millbrook, at Bruntingthorpe and other proving grounds and therefore have some basic knowledge of limit handling - which for me encompassses any situation where one is reaching, or has reached or exceeded the grip of one of more tyres. So this will include braking, cornering and accelerating.

But despite this background, I consider my limit handling skills to be well short of what is possible.

My purpose in developing limit handling is twofold. First, I want to go racing again, and so these skills are clearly invaluable. But second, I want to become a safer road driver.

With respect to my road objectives (which are clearly more relevant to this board), my aim is to get to a place where I will react quickly and appropriately to a limit handling moment on the public road. Of course, I always drive to minimise the risk of such an event occurring (that goes without saying), but I am honest enough with myself to know that a) I can make mistakes and b) road conditions can, even with the best observation in the world, catch one out.

I have also reflected on just how much closer to the limit of grip I now get under acceleration given some of the very powerful cars that I drive. With that power comes responsibility, and so it seems logical to learn to become even more aware than I am today of when that limit may be being approached.

Don Palmer is going to help me on this journey, and he makes the case very simply. Should the unexpected happen, you want your mind to metaphorically speaking just raise an eyebrow, as opposed to go into meltdown. If you can reset your brain to find a limit handling moment as something (again metaphorically) everyday, rather than scary as hell, you have a vastly better chance of dealing with the problem.

These past few days and weeks hundreds of motorists will have had buttock clenching moments. This is because they are unaware of the grip levels, and when the inevitable slide occurs they have no "program" in their head to deal with the situation. They will effectively panic or freeze, and whether or not they crash will be blind luck.

Contrast that with the highly trained limit handling driver, who will in the first instance probably keep below the grip limits far more often, but who will also deal with a limit moment with nary a rise in heartbeat.

All that said, I appreciate there is a balance here. For most motorists, for a combination of reasons (they are lucky, they drive low powered cars, they are careful etc.), they will never have a limit handling moment on the public road. So spending lots of money on the training I am about to embark upon is hard to justify. But for someone like me, who understakes a lot of motoring in sometimes very high powered cars, it seems the only responsible course of action.

I am also expecting this learning journey to be rather fun!

Cheers

[jcochrane]

Two excellant post from JamesAllport and stefan einz. I found the experience to be of value and I beleive it has helped me raise my awareness and sensitivity.

[TripleS]

What's the trade-off you're making?

Is it better or not better to have another tool in the box, imperfect though it may be from a bit of practice. You don't have to use it if you don't want to. Clearly better.

The only question you have to answer does that better-ness justify the nastiness (cost, time, attitude degradation etc).

Having more tools in the box is generally a good idea - so long as they don't get misused.

Best wishes all,
Dave.