ADUK Archive

Interesting piece in last week's Telegraph by Sir John Whitmore

http://tinyurl.com/yehg64k

Oh what a surprise. John mentions again his opposition to Pull Push steering.

I'm sorry, but every article he publishes this topic is raised. It certainly turns me off reading teh rest of his article.

he talks as if he is the expert and anyone who disagrees with him must be wrong. He may be an expert in Racing driving and coaching, but does that necessarily make him an expert in road driving? The arrogance he shows when he mentions that his much of his report on Police driving was rejected is beyond belief. Doesn't he consider that there is a possibility he could be wrong in some of his beliefs?

Nigel

Did I misread this? Rather than addressing the issue of training novice drivers, this seemed to descend into a personal rant because the police ignored his advice some 20 years ago.

A shame, because this is a serious issue, and I personally feel that our novice drivers are ill prepared by the system in this country.

He does seem to be a boring ol' fart...who has a few pet subjects and bashes on about them. I think he's just plain wrong about letting the steering wheel slide through your fingers and how out of date is he about using engine braking? The DSA and IAM haven't advocated this for decades. Double-declutching isn't a requirement for the IAM - can't speak for police driving schools - anyone know?

I thought some of the readers comments below the article were very good...I believe the DSA should place much more importance on driver attitude - but how you go about regulating and testing this I don't know.

It isn't detrimental to use of a bit of 'wheel sliding' as you straighten up after a low speed turn, any more than it's unacceptable to make other departures from the official prescription for driving.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

TripleS wrote:It isn't detrimental to use of a bit of 'wheel sliding' as you straighten up after a low speed turn...

Usually it isn't...but what happens if you hit a pot-hole or slippery surface just at the critical moment? In for the former, the steering could jerk to point somewhere you don't want and in the latter, the self-centering action... won't. Both cases are rare but why take the risk and what advantage is there in letting it slide?

I would argue keeping positive control of the steering wheel (i.e. a hand gripping) at all times is better than relying on something outside you ultimate control.

martine wrote:

TripleS wrote:It isn't detrimental to use of a bit of 'wheel sliding' as you straighten up after a low speed turn...

Usually it isn't...but what happens if you hit a pot-hole or slippery surface just at the critical moment? In for the former, the steering could jerk to point somewhere you don't want and in the latter, the self-centering action... won't. Both cases are rare but why take the risk and what advantage is there in letting it slide?

I would argue keeping positive control of the steering wheel (i.e. a hand gripping) at all times is better than relying on something outside your ultimate control.

I've always been fairly attentive to the nature of road surfaces, and given the deteriorating condition of much of our road network it is becoming even more important to do so. For that reason I don't think there's much risk of me doing the 'wheel sliding' at the wrong time and finding the steering wheel wrenched from my grasp. What's more likely is that I'll clobber a pedestrian as I'm trying to dodge the potholes.

Advantages? It is often advantageous to do something that is easier, so long as there is no penalty for doing it. We save some of our total capacity for other things, so we might do those better, and they might be more important.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

The question was is the driving test out of date?

The answer is yes - woefully so.

Cars get faster, tyres and brakes get better year on year but we keep turning out drivers to the same lamentable standard as we have for many years.

If it were a commercial company and the training given wasn't upto date with the machinery being offered you would risk corporate negligence.

martine wrote: Double-declutching isn't a requirement for the IAM - can't speak for police driving schools - anyone know?

What on earth is double-declutching?

Mitch

tubbylardo wrote:The question was is the driving test out of date?

The answer is yes - woefully so.

Cars get faster, tyres and brakes get better year on year but we keep turning out drivers to the same lamentable standard as we have for many years.

If it were a commercial company and the training given wasn't upto date with the machinery being offered you would risk corporate negligence.

The driving test has been evolving over the years. When I took my test there was no requirement to be able to park, now you may be tested on parallel park or bay park. There will always be someone who thinks teh test is lacking, but the test is a lot better than it used to be. Drivers have to reach a higher standard than they ever used to. I believe more could be done along the attitude line, not sure how that would be tested though because those that drive with a bad attitude know their attitude is wrong and they would drive differently were they to be tested.

I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again, ones attitude is set around the age of 11. Training needs to start before then and run continuously through to when the driving test is taken for us to have a chance of producing drivers with teh right attitude. This is where organisations like the U17 car club can start to make a difference.

Nigel

Is the driving test out of date?

NO - as a starting point it is fit for purpose
The problem is post test.

Newly passed drivers are told to carry on learning and get experience - err..... how do they know if they are learning correctly and the experiences they are learning from are the correct ones ?????????????

What is missing is early thinking (attitude) training

ROG wrote: NO - as a starting point it is fit for purpose
The problem is post test.

OK, that's a fair comment.

So what could be done post test?

Australia forces novice drivers to display a "P" plate for a year after passing their test.

How about a "re-test" after 6 or 12 months. Not necessarily a pass/fail but advisory on various techniques and habits.

No automatic conversion to UK licences for overseas licences

What is needed is compulsory post test periodic safe driving (not DSA) assessments with a system to put those with concerns onto further training.

I agree that Sir John comes across as a bit of a whinger and is himself not up to date with current thinking and practices. He is as dogmatic in his views about steering methods and other perceived beliefs as some in the IAM flat cap brigade can be. He may well be a respected coach and historic/classic racer, but this rant does his reputation no favours.

Renny

He does come across as a bit of a whinger, and his quote about not knowing what he doesn't know seem to apply to him equally as it applies to those he critisies.

Braking in corners surely from a racing background he should know thats the best way to destabilise a car and leave the road or track. That practice by "ordinary" drivers would also encourage them to take to much speed into corners and therefore decrease there safety margines increasing there chance of a collison and the speed at which they will hit road side furniture.

I expect many of those who critise pull push steering have never seen it done properly or at the speeds where proper control makes a difference to a road car. I'm unsure what he surgests instead except the practice of taking your hands off the wheel and allowing it to recentre it's self.

The driving test is failing to keep up with modern driving conditions but has changed massively since i took my test 10 years ago I think the lack of progress was for several decades before that when it remained largely unchanged and only now are the DSA trying to play catch up.

I watched a television programme on Dave recently where James May looked at training in Finland which featured Mika Hakkinen, it did show me how much better the scandinavians are at training and driving.

This is it