Learning at age 11 - good idea or not?

[ROG]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/8525441.stm

ROSPA are not happy about this.

IMO. it seems that mastering the controls are taking preference over the thinking or attitude issues

[The Thinker]

IAM chief examiner was on this morning commenting.

He seemed to be reasonably positive about this.

Personally I think it has to be judged right. I think 16 year old would find it useful to get used to the car controls before going on the road without the risk of crashing into others. If there is a gap between getting used to car controls of more than a few months and actual then I think people would get bored and start to develop bad habits.

I suppose what I am saying is training similar to the motor bike CBT is sensible.

[jont]

There are plenty of youngsters that start karting at a much earlier age and learn plenty about car(t) control. You're not going to interest youngsters in theory sessions, but if you can dangle the carrot of driving a car and teach attitude alongside, isn't that a good thing?

[GJD]

IMO. it seems that mastering the controls are taking preference over the thinking or attitude issues

If that were happening it would be a bad thing, but it's not entirely clear to me from that article and the one-line soundbites whether that's the case.

The quote from the RoSPA representative is interesting: "It will probably mean youngsters will take fewer lessons when they come to learn to drive...". If simply mastering the controls without any experience on real roads were enough to enable you to pass the test after significantly fewer lessons, that might imply that driver training itself was too focussed on handling the vehicle over thinking or attitude issues.

Gavin

[ScoobyChris]

I've had some experience of the Under 17 Car Club (http://www.under17-carclub.co.uk/) and they can start driving at 12. The drivers I've been out with have certainly been very smooth drivers with good attitudes and knowledge of the H/C.

Speaking to one of the people behind the Club, he suggested that quite a few of those leaving at age 17 and Grade-X would not have much trouble passing an advanced test at RoSPA Gold standard, although as all the training is done in ideal conditions at off-road facilities it was hard for me to assess that.

Chris

[x-Sonia-x]

I personaly think the sooner you learn to do anything in life the better. Okay road driving isnt appropriate but certain skills and knowledge that they could then progress into road driving has to be good. Most 17-18 year olds probably only ever have about 40-50 hours of driving tuition, thats nowhere near enough Prepare them earlier, give them the knowledge of car control, of course they are not ready at 11-12 BUT by the time they are ready, they will be much further ahead. In fact I think road safety and driving should be taught at school anyway, not just your regular green cross code and cycle awareness, but the theory side should be taught at school age. Every single person, whether they intend to drive...and most will...should be aware of it, after all they will all use roads in one form or another

For me, my son is 11 next month, he is car mad, and always has been, he memorised the Top Trump fast cars cards few years ago Anyway I show him now, exactly what you do when you are driving, he has the enthusiasm and wants to know, when I was his age and older we never had a car so I knew nothing. Preparing him to be a safe driver...cant see a problem with that

[MGF]

The company states that it is lack of experience that contributes to young people being more likely than others to have an accident. They go on to state that driving off-road will give them this experience. I don't agree with this as it is experience of driving on the road that makes you safer and off-road driving appears not to be able to emulate this.

On the other hand they do appear to take attitude seriously and at these ages the instructors may well be able to make a differnce.

[martine]

I think it's a spiffing idea and would fully support it!

In my experience if you give young people responsible training be it cars/bikes/karts/guns at an early age they become responsible and skilled grown-ups. It's what the scouts/cadets are all about. When I was in the Air Training Corps some people were amazed that 14 year olds were taught to fire military SLRs (rifle) but it was done responsibly of course, we loved it and had the utmost respect for safety etc.

Re Scooby's post...I really can't see however, a driver from the U17 car club being able to quickly pass ROSPA at Gold. They may well be great at car control but would have no experience (apart from watching) of hazard perception and coping with other cars in close proximity at roundabouts etc (it's all done on airfields and open car parks isn't it?).

[Horse]

IMO. it seems that mastering the controls are taking preference over the thinking or attitude issues

What do you base that opinion on?

I have no first (or second) hand knowledge of how such 'junior' driving is run, so yours would be appreciated.

[ROG]

IMO. it seems that mastering the controls are taking preference over the thinking or attitude issues

What do you base that opinion on?

I have no first (or second) hand knowledge of how such 'junior' driving is run, so yours would be appreciated.

I made an assumption based on what I saw on the TV - from reading the link in the post a few above this one, I can now see that it is not the case.

I don't know if they already know about it but I've sent them a link to the MD site

[fungus]

One of the problems today is that a lot of younger people are not exposed to risk, and do not know how to assess it.

A common example is when crossing the road. They are taught to go to a pedestrian crossing. If it's a zebra they have to look to see if the motorist has stopped. But at light controlled crossings how many pedestrians wait for the green light, then cross without looking. Also how many times do you see a pedestrian walk up to a light controlled crossing and just press the button without looking to see if there is a vehicle actualy approaching or not, and whether they could cross without the aid of the lights? When this is forwarded a few years to them driving a car, they lack basic road sense skills. If they can't cross the road without the help of a traffic light, how can they assess whether it's safe to drive across a non light controlled junction?

On the whole I think that it's a good idea to learn car controll before going out on the road, but I think that eleven is probably too young as they still have six years to wait before being allowed to drive a car on the public highway. However, if they are able to keep up the driving on an off road facility, then I see no reason why not, after all if they have the odd misshap off road then hopefully they will have less when they go on the road.

[Laconic]

Last year, I was visiting the Transport Museum in Lucerne -- a great place to visit if you have any interest in any kind of motorised transport* -- and happened to see a miniature course for visiting kids (about 6 years old) to drive round in small carts, complete with mini-junctions and traffic lights.

Initially, I was a bit dismissive, thinking that tootling around a mock up of some roads has no relationship to actual driving but I watched a little longer and realised that what this course had was not so much cart control, but emphasis was rather on the rules of the road: proper positioning, proper signalling (hand signals), approach and respecting priority. The kids caught on very quickly and took it very seriously -- a bit too seriously in some cases with some impressive displays of upset if another 'driver' broke the rules.

It'll all be in the implementation I think. A good teaching course that makes honest claims about what it can and cannot deliver would be a great thing. I could see an influx of poor courses thrown together by ill-qualified trainers looking for the next income stream being a problem, but the idea itself is sound.



Dei.


*there's lots to like, but from a driving safety perspective, one of the best displays had to be the chance to be a real life crash test dummy.

[fungus]

Years ago when we were on holiday in Denmark, we took the children to Lego Land in Bilund. They had a road layout with roundabouts and traffic lights etc.The emphasis was on fun and the rules of the road. I can't remember the minimum age, but I remember my son was just a little too young, but being a big lad for his age we managed to get him in. I remember him getting stuck on a couple of occasions,(poor steering technique).

There was one German lad who seemed to drive faster than most and crashed on more than one occasion. On the other hand it could have been that there were a large number of British children who perhaps could not get used to driving onthe wrong side of the road and got in his way.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

It's very sad that Rospa can't get behind this sort of training. Many of you will know that North Wilts RoADAR has strong links with the Under 17 Car Club, providing tutors at most Castle Combe meets these days. Over the last 2 weekends we have given nearly 20 of their marshals (17 years old and over who have finished their time in the Club, but continue to officiate, and who have full driving licences) driving assessments on the road. We very much hope that many of those will continue with RoADAR training, and take their advanced tests, adding Roadcraft, on-road experience and enhanced observation and safety skills to their already impressive driving skills and knowledge. We will be writing formally to Rospa HQ expressing our support for the Club.

Commercial schemes such as that highlighted on the BBC this morning undoubtedly have their place too. Surely the more training, the better.

It would be good if some of the doubters could be persuaded to come and see the schemes, and particularly the U17CC, in action.

Nick
Chairman, North Wiltshire RoADAR

[waremark]

Well done Nick and North Wiltshire Roadar. I have only ever heard good things about U17CC, and was sorry that my children did not have the commitment to take part.

I think this is entirely the sort of project which road safety organisations should promote. Attitudes to road safety are certainly being formed from age 11 onwards, and contrary to the initial fears of Rog I strongly expect that organisations involved in young driver training are keen to instil safety awareness. Kevin Clinton's pronouncements often get me wound up, and I think this is another example of him being misguided about driving issues.

I also think it is sensible to teach children to control the car before they are allowed to go on the road; when they go on the road they are then able to focus on interacting with other road users. I like the idea of introducing them to car control in a disciplined way, rather than for example letting them loose with little safety training in an old banger in a field. Their first lesson on an off-road facility should be similar to the way an ADI would otherwise start with a 17 year old - with quite a bit to teaching before ever starting the engine.

My children had the Lego experience at Legoland Windsor; I think that was mainly entertainment, although I do remember them listening attentively to a rules of the road lecture before they started. But they were then all taught car control as mentioned probably from about 15. Only in one case did we use a commercial under 17 instructor - who I thought was very good. I am fully satisfied that this enhanced the learning experience rather than otherwise.

If there is a news story here, it should be about how a driving school can generate £55 per hour, even if this has to cover use of an off-road facility!