Poor Driving

[daz6215]

Have to say, Ive seen some unbelievable bad driving over the last few days, bearing in mind that we have had somewhere in the region of 2ft of snow! Very few people seem to slow down and drive to the conditions choosing instead to drive in their normal manner and hoping the vehicle stops if they need it too! and they wonder why they crash!!!

Rant over!

[lyndon]

A lot of my early driving was done in Canada, where we could rely on snow for at least 4 months of the year. We all had studded snow tires which made life easier! But every year when the snow first came there would be a spate of silly mostly low speed bumps, until people 'remembered' how to drive on snow. For the rest of the winter, all would be well.

[jont]

But all that modern technology (ABS/ESP etc etc) means we're immune from the laws of physics, doesn't it....?

[Big Err]

But all that modern technology (ABS/ESP etc etc) means we're immune from the laws of physics, doesn't it....?

And 4x4s are immune to the effects of snow and ice.

[daz6215]

But all that modern technology (ABS/ESP etc etc) means we're immune from the laws of physics, doesn't it....?

And 4x4s are immune to the effects of snow and ice.

Even if they have them, they probably wouldn't know how to use a 4x4 if they got stuck! Or they think their 4x4 with no diff lock or hi/low range is a proper 4x4!

[Standard Dave]

But all that modern technology (ABS/ESP etc etc) means we're immune from the laws of physics, doesn't it....?

And 4x4s are immune to the effects of snow and ice.

Sadly the first few days of snow have already claimed fatalities one of them a 4x4 driver.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-li ... e-11861321

[waremark]

But all that modern technology (ABS/ESP etc etc) means we're immune from the laws of physics, doesn't it....?

And 4x4s are immune to the effects of snow and ice.

Sadly the first few days of snow have already claimed fatalities one of them a 4x4 driver.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-li ... e-11861321

I have been wondering how the KSI rate in these conditions compares with more normal conditions. We have to remember that on average through the year about 7 people per day die on UK roads.

Is there a case for making winter tyres compulsory?

[Gareth]

Is there a case for making winter tyres compulsory?

Won't it depend on whether the number of children being killed on the roads goes up?

[TripleS]

Is there a case for making winter tyres compulsory?

No, that would be quite the wrong thing to do.

What should happen is that the tyre industry should deploy their skills to produce tyres that give a decent performance in the range of conditions we normally encounter in the UK. In my view it was a mistake to fiddle the compounds (and other design features?) to improve performance in dry/wet conditions at summer temperatures, at the expense of performance in winter conditions and at temperatures below 7 degrees C. This has placed the vast majority of drivers (who probably believe their tyres are suitable for all year round use in the UK) at a disadvantage just when they need good tyre performance in the added difficulties of winter driving. This might actually explain the chaos caused on the roads in recent years by tiny amounts of snow, when in years gone by we coped much better.

I'm not sure when this summer tyre/winter tyre nonsense started in the UK, but the probablility is that the vast majority of normal drivers don't even know what's been going on, but I doubt if they would be very happy with the situation if they were to find out.

Where drivers are of a performance orientated mindset, and want enhanced grip in dry/wet conditions at summer temperatures, they should be the ones who buy special tyres to suit those conditions, and be prepared to change to winter tyres when appropriate; but this is not a regime that should be foisted on the rest of us. Most drivers do not need extra summer grip, but they certainly don't want to be disadvantaged in their winter driving, because that will really add to their difficulties, and many of them will get caught out, and I would say it's not entirely their fault.

I appreciate that a number of contributors here will strongly disagree with my feelingsa on this, but if you try to look at it from the viewpoint of the vast majority of normal drivers, I think you might recognise that we have reached this situation - either by accident or design - on a false premise, in which case the tyre industry ought to change their policy on this subject.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

Most drivers do not need extra summer grip, but they certainly don't want to be disadvantaged in their winter driving, because that will really add to their difficulties, and many of them will get caught out, and I would say it's not entirely their fault.

Regarding your entire comment, you already know I have a different position. However in relation to this particular point, I would suggest that many drivers have bought into the idea of newer cars being larger to provide more room, heavier because of greater amounts of safety equipment, and with fashionably large wheels with low profile tyres. At the same time, many drivers have bought tyres based on price, but at the same time desired tyres that are quiet and have a long life. Perhaps the consequences have been unintended but it's hardly surprising that tyres have become more specialised, and that commonly fitted tyres are those where economies of scale have driven the price down.

Having said all that, I remember driving in the 80's on snow and ice and having slight losses of control; tyres of 20-40 years ago might not have been all that good anyway. I've found that some manufacturers make tyres for classic cars - it might be instructive to find out how they compare with their mainstream products.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

There are tyres branded "all season" which you can buy Dave, if you want a more general purpose tyre. Every online tyre reseller makes it pretty clear you're choosing "summer tyres" unless you change the selection.

Tyres of 20 years ago did seem to have slightly more generalised tread patterns though. Looking at my new winter tyres I'm reminded of tyres "like they used to be". I've also noticed, having spent a little more time looking at tyre tread recently, that many less ostentatious, less performance-oriented tyres, also have more old-fashioned looking tread pattern, with more, smaller grooves in them, just as the winter tyres do. So I think there's a reasonable chance of getting something with a sensible amount of performance across a wide range of temperatures, if you don't have a car with very large wheels and very low profile tyres on it.

[TripleS]

OK, I am well aware that Gareth and others disagree with me.

I wonder what sort of tyres are fitted as original equipment on normal cars, i.e. the sort of cars bought by most people, as opposed to car/driving enthusiasts. If they are all-season tyres, and they give good allround performance, including a respectable level of grip in winter conditions and at low temperatures, all well and good.

OTOH if the car makers are fitting summer tyres on the production lines, and buyers don't know this, and then they find they need to change to different tyres in order to cope reasonably with winter conditions, I think that would be highly objectionable. In any case that would be a ridiculous situation in the case of cars being sold in the winter months, so hopefully that doesn't happen.

Incidentally, since classics have been mentioned, I have owned a number of cars that later became 'classics' - mostly Jaguars - and they used Dunlop 'Road Speed RS5' nylon cased cross ply tyres all-year-round, and they worked quite decently. It was certainly possible to corner at a quite respectable pace on them. These were size 6.40 x 15, probably with an aspect ratio of about 0.85, though this is before the days of low profile sections. Those will sound quite narrow when compared with modern tyre widths, but there again the modern fashion for having wide tyres has its downside.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BlondeBimbo]

I am and have always been very fond of winter tyres!

I don't think they should be compulsory though - it should be quite the opposite, I believe it should be prohibited to use winter tyres in peak summer months (June - August), and prohibited to use summer tyres in peak winter months (Nov - Feb).

The driver has the choice - use all season tyres the whole year, or change over between Summer and Winter tyres.

Simples!

Over the years the average driver has dictated (by their choice of what they perceive as performance) that the car and tyre manufacturers use over wide, low aspect ratio summer tyres.

These are useless in the winter, and for safety this should be prevented, there is zero cost to this as AS tyres are the same as S tyres - and if like me, due to the mileage I do, over the course of my ownership of a car I will go through two sets of tyres, I choose to make these one summer set and one winter set. - giving me the best tyres for each season - my only effort is storing one set of wheels (and tyres) over the year and buying and selling a spare set of wheels - the cost is about the same.

BB

[GJD]

These are useless in the winter

They're not useless, they're just differently abled. I drove all the work to work today - and back again - on my wide, low(ish) profile, sporty performancey tyres and I didn't crash once.

[zadocbrown]

Is there a case for making winter tyres compulsory?

I think the question is why do people harp on so much about road safety but decline to take simple steps to protect themselves until it is forced on them? (and then they moan like hell)

This week I've taken the simplest step of all and left the car at home (easier said than done for some people I know).