RoSPA and IAM Again

[lyndon]

Am I the only person that thinks it is a great shame that RoSPA and IAM both base their AD on Roadcraft? It feels like a lost opportunity to develop an alternative.

Just as a small example, if you have elderly drivers who want to improve their driving, is it really necessary that they are encouraged to abandon MSM/PSL in favour of IPSGA. If you take a DSA trained, rusty driver who is beginning to find learning new things not quite as easy as it was 40 years ago (yes, I am talking about myself here), would a viable alternative be to refresh the skills they once had (get them back to test standard), then to enhance them with some extra hazard perception work, make sure their HC knowledge is up to scratch, add some commentary driving, if appropriate, help them understand limit points and add a few of the best bits of 'Mind Driving'.

It took me quite a long time to replace MSM/PSL with IPSGA, and I'm not convinced that it was worth the effort in terms of improvement to my driving. Surely there is a place of building on what is already there, for some people?

[ROG]

There is nothing to stop an IAM or ROSPA observer giving their time to assist a driver who wants to improve their driving but they may not be doing this under the umbrella of those organisations

This is something I do from time to time - using my experience as an IAM observer to help another driver improve on safety
In this type of instance the AD way does not get used - just plain simple safe driving

[lyndon]

What I'm suggesting though is that there could be another route to AD which builds on the DSA methods, so there is no need to unlearn the basics.

To continue with my example, I doubt that anyone would know whether I was using MSM/PSL or IPSGA, unless I wss giving a commentary; and even then it may be difficult to distinguish between them.

[ExadiNigel]

Lyndon, MSMPSL is a more rigid/less flexible application of IPSGA.

There are advanced tests based on the DSA syllabus offered by teh likes of the DIA (Driving Instructors Association) and I think the RAC fo, or did, one too.

Personally I think IPSGA is simpler than MSMPSL.

[ROG]

There are now many LGV training schools that use a mixture of both - MSPSGA - what they have done is substitue the I for MS

[martine]

What I'm suggesting though is that there could be another route to AD which builds on the DSA methods, so there is no need to unlearn the basics.

Very little in IAM/ROSPA Advanced Driving contradicts DSA teachings. I would argue MSM is a simplified version of IPSGA after all. Suggested road positioning for left hand bends is a little different. More emphasis on progress. I'm struggling to find any more major differences.

Doesn't AD already build on DSA?

[vonhosen]

There are now many LGV training schools that use a mixture of both - MSPSGA - what they have done is substitue the I for MS

Why

Doesn't information cover Mirrors & signals ?

[zadocbrown]

There are now many LGV training schools that use a mixture of both - MSPSGA - what they have done is substitue the I for MS

Why

Doesn't information cover Mirrors & signals ?

Information is a long word for some people to take in?

Quicker to get someone to look at a plate of glass at the prescribed time than to talk about what they are seeing and how they should react?

[ExadiNigel]

There are now many LGV training schools that use a mixture of both - MSPSGA - what they have done is substitue the I for MS

Why

Doesn't information cover Mirrors & signals ?

Information is a long word for some people to take in?

Quicker to get someone to look at a plate of glass at the prescribed time than to talk about what they are seeing and how they should react?

Information also 'includes' that 'orrible word "USE" ie you should analyse what is seen & what to do about it. MS simply suggests glance in your mirror and bang on the signal - no wonder there are a lot of people out there (including some ADI's) that think you must signal every time!

[Horse]

What I'm suggesting though is that there could be another route to AD which builds on the DSA methods, so there is no need to unlearn the basics.

That even assumes that the DSA way is best.

In the USA riders are taught SIPDE:
Scan Identify Predict Decide Execute
By the Motorcycle Safety Foundation.

When I instructed for them, that was in the 'L' equivalent course, in the 'advanced' it was shortened to Search Predict Act, although they've now replaced that with Search Evaluate Execute.

Personally, I prefer Search Predict Act, which they were using in the 1990s if not earlier, and which - as you may have noted - bears an uncanny resemblance to Observe Plan Act.

I've drawn a comparison between those two:
'Search' is the police 'drugs dog', racing through a property hunting everywhere looking and checking, while 'observe' its the bored copper on 'obbo' sat in a car getting bored.

I encourage people to actively search

More here:

http://www.msf-usa.org/index_new.cfm?sp ... me=library

SEE
http://www.msf-usa.org/vru/MSF_Tools_fo ... eption.pdf
http://msf-usa.org/Downloads/PreparingR ... tation.pdf

Now you may be thinking "Ah but . . . that's mental processes, not physical actions" - but that's the foundation on which the Foundation build [ ] - getting the thinking right, then let the actions speak louder

[lyndon]

MS simply suggests glance in your mirror and bang on the signal - no wonder there are a lot of people out there (including some ADI's) that think you must signal every time!

But the DSA guide on MSM routine says:
Signal - consider whether a signal is necessary. If it is, signal your intention to change course or slow down clearly and in good time.

This wouldn't be possible without using the information you get from checking the miror.

Are we in danger of creating differences where they don't exist?

[ROG]

MS simply suggests glance in your mirror and bang on the signal - no wonder there are a lot of people out there (including some ADI's) that think you must signal every time!

But the DSA guide on MSM routine says:
Signal - consider whether a signal is necessary. If it is, signal your intention to change course or slow down clearly and in good time.

This wouldn't be possible without using the information you get from checking the miror.

Are we in danger of creating differences where they don't exist?

SENARIO
Long straight stretch of rural road and a right turn coming up which the driver is going to take
Driver checks mirrors 300 yards before junction and all is clear for a good mile behind
Driver does not recheck mirrors just prior to turn
Nothing is going to catch that driver unless they are doing Warp speed
Is the driver safe or not??
Answer from DSA = ?
Answer from AD = ?

[fungus]

Is there realy that much difference between IPSGA & MSPSL? Infomation = Mirror Signal. Position, same in both systems, apart from the more extreme positions advocated in Roadcraft. Speed & Gear = Speed. In other words use acceleraion sense, or brake and select the appropriate gear. Look, back to information, which encompasses every phase of the system. MSPSL should then continue, ADA. Assess, Decide, Act, which could be be Acceleration.

I explain both systems in that way to learners, and if you explain that mirrors must be checked before making a decision to change speed, position, or when deciding if a signal is neccessary or not, I can't see why there should be any confusion.

[Porker]

No, I don't, despite being told by a chap on another forum that there was a massive difference.

In response to Rog's question above, the speed differentials don't actually need to be by any means impossible to achieve to cause problems in that scenario. An average for the decelerating vehicle that's turning right of 25mph (quite possible if engine braking alone) over the 300 yards would bring them into conflict with a superbike (or, let's face it, a committed BMW 330D driver) who's closing them down with a speed of 150mph over the 2060 yards they would have to cover to the junction.

P.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

It seems to me they're the same thing except that the advanced driver is expected to be continually reassessing the situation using all facets of the Information process - Taking, Using and Giving it, and IPSGA is less prescriptive about sequences. You are welcome to look in your mirrors 6 times during a manoeuvre if you decide it's advisable. PSL is just PSGA without the gear phase being explicitly mentioned. This page spells it out, and actually puts Gear back in

You could build any number of different acronyms. The point is that drivers should have some kind of mental checklist that can be built into their driving system to make sure they are safe - not turning right without checking behind their vehicle, for instance.

As long as whatever system it is, is taught with an open mind, what does it matter what the different acronyms are?

On a first session with a new associate, I get in the car with them and ask them to do whatever they normally do before moving off. Nearly everybody already has some kind of rudimentary cockpit drill they go through, even if it's just a token waggle of the gear lever. That can be built upon. What it's built into isn't rigidly defined, again it's just a structure to help make people safer on the road.