Unusual pedestrian crossings

[fungus]

Reading through a post from martine on the advanced driving forum (cars), Apr 2006, titled "Zebra with no road marking" set me thinking about pedestrian crossings used in the 20mph zone in Blandford Forum.

The road passes through the old part of the town and is one way. The crossings are raised about the hight of a speed hump, with tactile paving on the pavement. There are no zig zag lines denoting the controlled area of the crossing, only give way lines.

I have not seen crossings like this anywhere else. Does any one else have unusual pedestrian crossings near them?

[zadocbrown]

One thing that concerns me are the half baked crossings you get in supermarket car parks and such like. They are usually clear enough to pedestrians but less so for drivers. I think they give a false sense of security to pedestrians who may assume the crossing has the same legal standing as a fully fledged zebra (bit of a mixed metaphor there ). But this cannot be the case since they don't conform to standard spec. If you hit someone on a conventional crossing you'd be on a sticky wicket, but if it doesn't meet specifications and is difficult to see as a result...?

[gfoot]

You shouldn't mow down pedestrians anyway, however bad the road markings are! I've always assumed the legal requirements for zebra crossings are just there to give (rarely used?) ammunition against drivers who fail to stop but also don't hit anybody. If you actually hit somebody then you're screwed whether it's on a zebra crossing or not.

[ExadiNigel]

One thing that concerns me are the half baked crossings you get in supermarket car parks and such like. They are usually clear enough to pedestrians but less so for drivers. I think they give a false sense of security to pedestrians who may assume the crossing has the same legal standing as a fully fledged zebra (bit of a mixed metaphor there ). But this cannot be the case since they don't conform to standard spec. If you hit someone on a conventional crossing you'd be on a sticky wicket, but if it doesn't meet specifications and is difficult to see as a result...?

A coulpe of years ago I was running a Bikeability course at one of the primary schools in Calne. When we had a break, the kids wanted to run into Sainsbury's to buy sweets. While I was waiting outside there was a security van parked with his nose right up to the zebra crossing painted across the car park entrance. Being bored, waiting for the kids I thought I would take a photo to send to the company with a suggestion that the driver required some further training. Just as the kids come out the one of the guards gets out of the van comes over and accuses me of taking photos. Nothing wrong with his vision then, wonder why he had trouble seeing the zebra crossing then? He then suggests that I could have been sizing the van up ready to rob it! Me and 6 primary school kids? Yeah right!

But, as mentioned above, what status do these crossings have? If someone were to be knocked over whilst crossing would the car park owners have to share some of the blame for not implementing the crossing correctly?

[zadocbrown]

If someone were to be knocked over whilst crossing would the car park owners have to share some of the blame for not implementing the crossing correctly?

My thoughts exactly. Yes, drivers should be looking out for pedestrians, but do these pseudo-crossings make things better or worse?

From observing driver behaviour it seems clear that drivers don't always accord these crossings the respect they would show those on the road. Thus, it seems that the design of these areas could entice pedestrians to walk out in front of a driver who isn't intending to stop.

So if the pedestrian sues the driver for running them down on a pedestrian crossing, and the driver says actually they didn't identify it as a ped-crossing because it didn't conform to HC definitions, where does the buck stop?

[driverpete]

Who is vulnerable in a supermarket car park? Me in my seat-belted, air-bagged, crumple-zoned cocoon or the shopper struggling with a wayward trolley and fractious child? There is no debate - eyes open, brain in gear.

[ExadiNigel]

Who is vulnerable in a supermarket car park? Me in my seat-belted, air-bagged, crumple-zoned cocoon or the shopper struggling with a wayward trolley and fractious child? There is no debate - eyes open, brain in gear.

That's the common sense answer, but every so often the legal system ignores teh common sense solution and throws a bit of a wobbler!

[fungus]

Spanner in the works, and I know I'll probably get lynched for this. I accept that the pedestrian might be deaf, blind, have learning difficulties, be a child, etc. and whilst we as drivers have to take responsibility for more vulnerable road users, such as pedestrians, cyclists etc. this does not absolve the more vulnerable of taking some responsibility for their own safety where ever possible.

Back to pedestrian crossings. I seem to remember reading that zebra crossings were found to be safer than light controlled crossings for the reason that pedestrians will look before stepping onto a zebra crossing, whereas at light controlled crossings pedestrians tend to go when the green man appears, assuming that drivers will be stopping, without looking.

[Standard Dave]

Back to pedestrian crossings. I seem to remember reading that zebra crossings were found to be safer than light controlled crossings for the reason that pedestrians will look before stepping onto a zebra crossing, whereas at light controlled crossings pedestrians tend to go when the green man appears, assuming that drivers will be stopping, without looking.

Thats true and is used by planning officers, crossings outside schools should all be zebras it is easier and safer to teach the kids to stop look listen and then cross.
ATS controlled crossings are there to aid or restrict traffic flow depending on the location.

[Big Err]

Back to pedestrian crossings. I seem to remember reading that zebra crossings were found to be safer than light controlled crossings for the reason that pedestrians will look before stepping onto a zebra crossing, whereas at light controlled crossings pedestrians tend to go when the green man appears, assuming that drivers will be stopping, without looking.

But this flies in the face of the guidance under the Disability Discrimination Act since zebra crossings do not have the light/sound/tactile warning systems that Pelican or PUFFIN crossings have.

Many local authorities also preferred Zebra crossings as they are substantially cheaper to install.