Do driving instructors drive like learners?

[fungus]

This morning at the local test centre the conversation got round to advanced driving. One instructor had taken, and achieved Roadar Gold. However, he had let his membership lapse and wished to have nothing else to do with Rospa. His reason was that his observer wanted him to get up to speed and maintain speed wherever possible, straight line if safe, and overall make good progress which he didn't see as necessary, and you certainly should not be encouraging drivers to do these things.

The general consensus of opinion, (not mine), was that they, the advanced driving organisations, encourage driving that is beyond safe. They positively frowned upon straight lining, and disliked the idea of getting going as it wasn't ECO as for the police... My overall impression was that they drove like learners.

Incidently, the examiner who took me for my IAM test said that he failed many ADIs because they "drove like learners"

[vonhosen]

Different people have different priorities & values. These are bound to shape what they believe is important for good driving & subsequently how they drive as a result.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I think there are all sorts. Many RoADAR tutors are eco-friendly, just as many others are progressive. As long as you satisfy the examiner that you are able to drive to the speed limit, and use the performance of the vehicle in a sympathetic manner, there are many shades of meaning between outright eco-driving and full bore progress.

[Standard Dave]

The true mark of an advanced driver would to be able to drive in several different styles surely.

I can drive in a totally eco driving style moving throught the gears at barely tickover ( this is very annoying to following drivers to the point of being inconsiderate).
I can also drive to the high speed police standard driving grade using the whole range of the gears fully using the roadcraft system.

I've seen driving instructors or at least their cars being driven in many different ways I assume like taxi drivers and delivery drivers time between jobs is losing money so keeping gaps between lessons to a minimum is desirable and to meet times could lead to some driving more progressively at some times of day.

[IVORTHE DRIVER]

Bit along the lines of another post but....do you think that perhaps some ADI's drive "down" to the level of their pupils?
Probably unintentionally but much in the same way as primary School teachers go down to their pupils level.

ADI's have a difficult task, coping with a nervous pupil, trying not to inconvenience other road users and avoiding the idiots who forget they themselves were once in that situation, give them a break, so they may not make it to advanced level, so what!

As for advanced driving encouraging driving "beyond safe" surely the advanced idea is to teach "beyond basic" and make it safer, for the driver and other road users.

I do not always drive on the limit, in fact most of the time I cruise around 50-55mph, motorways are sometimes done at 60-65mph, does that make me a bad driver? I doubt it, it is a matter of choice.

I choose not to speed, not because I can't but because I prefer to be relaxed when I drive, if I should decide to do a "fast drive" I find the extra effort required in observation, anticipation etc make it harder to relax. (gets worse with age)

Having said that my new car (planned for next March) will do 0-60 in under 7 secs and go on to around 145mph

[vonhosen]

Bit along the lines of another post but....do you think that perhaps some ADI's drive "down" to the level of their pupils?

Why ?

How often do ADIs dem drive for their pupils ?

[jont]

His reason was that his observer wanted him to get up to speed and maintain speed wherever possible, straight line if safe, and overall make good progress which he didn't see as necessary, and you certainly should not be encouraging drivers to do these things.

The general consensus of opinion, (not mine), was that they, the advanced driving organisations, encourage driving that is beyond safe. They positively frowned upon straight lining, and disliked the idea of getting going as it wasn't ECO as for the police... My overall impression was that they drove like learners.

Funny, my ADI positively encouraged me to make progress up to the speed limit and overtake as necessary while I was learning (my lessons involved 30 minutes each way along the A48 from Chepstow to Newport so we could cover the town stuff/test routes in Newport). Sadly this section of road is no longer 3-lane nor NSL so opportunities for today's youngsters to get the same practice have been removed.

Why do instructors think they shouldn't be teaching this sort of stuff? Surely it's better the new drivers learn with suitable instruction rather than try to find out for themselves how to do it with no-one to point out what they might be doing wrong/dangerously?

[martine]

I think the view of the gaggle (is that the right collective noun) of ADIs is quite shocking. I expect most of them have never taken an IAM/ROSPA test so probably have a distorted view of what it's all about. I have at least 3 driving styles (all bad probably): DSA, IAM and ADUK. I'd love to give those that criticise a demo...it might change their view?

[michael769]

I'd love to give those that criticise a demo...it might change their view?

Or just confirm it.

[ROG]

If an ADI is constantly tellinng their pupils how to drive then they are also telling themselves the same - bit like commentary - and the norm for an ADI can be that of basic DSA car test level for their own driving

Nothing wrong with that but then going on to say that AD is unsafe is very silly but it might SEEM too fast if it is above their normal comfort zone

[martine]

I'd love to give those that criticise a demo...it might change their view?

Or just confirm it.

Ahh yes...didn't think of that! I'd like to think if I drove in the IAM style and did a commentary they might understand the reasoning and could appreciate it's meant to be safe and progressive (more so than the DSA would expect from a learner). I'd probably temper my off-siding though as this is always controversial.

Let me at them!

[crr003]

If an ADI is constantly tellinng their pupils how to drive then they are also telling themselves the same - bit like commentary - and the norm for an ADI can be that of basic DSA car test level for their own driving

I've just taken Part 2 and was advised to drive "as if giving a demonstration to a learner of what's required to pass the learner test, but not drive like a learner", if that makes sense. So nothing "fancy".
I got a DF for "use of speed" on some country roads - not exceeding the speed limit, but apparently being a bit too progressive for the conditions. I thought that bit was tame, even by IAM standards.
And ECO is everywhere - I was told not to use more than 2.5k revs for accelerating through the gears for example.
(Off topic, I took an ADI out for an IAM taster drive once who just wouldn't use any revs. The ECO was strong in that one.........)

But, if you're an ADI and it's your car, you'd probably want it driven as economically/sympathetically as possible to achieve the required standard?

[jont]

And ECO is everywhere - I was told not to use more than 2.5k revs for accelerating through the gears for example.
(Off topic, I took an ADI out for an IAM taster drive once who just wouldn't use any revs. The ECO was strong in that one.........)

But, if you're an ADI and it's your car, you'd probably want it driven as economically/sympathetically as possible to achieve the required standard?

Haven't we done this before? Braking is what's non-eco, not accelerating. And accelerating out of the power band will be a lot less efficient than accelerating in the power band. So if your peak torque figure isn't until say 4000rpm, how can it be "eco" to change up at 2.5?

[fungus]

I think the view of the gaggle (is that the right collective noun) of ADIs is quite shocking. I expect most of them have never taken an IAM/ROSPA test so probably have a distorted view of what it's all about. I have at least 3 driving styles (all bad probably): DSA, IAM and ADUK. I'd love to give those that criticise a demo...it might change their view?

Some haven't even heard of the IAM or RoADAR, yet they are both mentioned on DSA leaflets along with the Diamond advanced test in test centres.

I don't think the one that was criticising would appreciate a demo from the likes of us as he'd already had one from his observer, an ex Dorset class 1. He just felt the whole thing was beyond his liking. It was not relaxing enough. The road that was used for the demo was one I use frequently myself, the B3078 Wimborne Minster to Cranborne. I then take a left at the Horton Inn and then on to cross the A354 Blandford to Salisbury road at Thickthorne Cross and then on to Zig Zag Hill and back to Blandford via Melbury Abbas and Spread Eagle Hill. All these roads have good fast sections with some fast bends. If you remember correctly, Zig Zag Hill and part of the B3078 were used on the Shepton Mallett driving day.

When I did my observer training, with an ex Dorset class1, we drove the B3078 on a couple of occasions, and apart from four or five bends, he said that most were 60mph bends, and this was a reason that many fail, because they do not have the confidence to push just that bit harder.

[fungus]

If an ADI is constantly tellinng their pupils how to drive then they are also telling themselves the same - bit like commentary - and the norm for an ADI can be that of basic DSA car test level for their own driving

I've just taken Part 2 and was advised to drive "as if giving a demonstration to a learner of what's required to pass the learner test, but not drive like a learner", if that makes sense. So nothing "fancy".
I got a DF for "use of speed" on some country roads - not exceeding the speed limit, but apparently being a bit too progressive for the conditions. I thought that bit was tame, even by IAM standards.
And ECO is everywhere - I was told not to use more than 2.5k revs for accelerating through the gears for example.
(Off topic, I took an ADI out for an IAM taster drive once who just wouldn't use any revs. The ECO was strong in that one.........)

But, if you're an ADI and it's your car, you'd probably want it driven as economically/sympathetically as possible to achieve the required standard?

Glad I'm not doing my part 2 now. My revs don't drop below 2000 very often.

Yes I do teach ECO, but not to those extremes. One examiner did mention that my pupil could have used the higher gears earlier, but when I said that I teach them to use third around town as it gives better control, he agreed that it was a moot point anyway.