ADUK Archive

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:02 pm**

I would like to spark a debate about different techniques advocated within Roadcraft, I would like members to critically analyse those methods to perhaps identify potential flaws that may lead to misinterpretation or other perhaps safety issues. This will hopefully lead to the trainer having more than one option to achieve the same goal, thus helping the student develop!

Cornering Technique- Roadcraft advocates using the system , Info-Position-speed-gear and then drive the curve with a light throttle setting to maintain speed,
It is my opinion that this method does not necessarily promote smoothness with regard to weight transfer of the vehicle, most students will accelerate hard around the corner compromising safety, the method I prefer is to turn in under braking to settle the car down and then release the brake prior to driving around the radius.

Thoughts?

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:26 pm**

daz6215 wrote:I prefer is to turn in under braking to settle the car down and then release the brake prior to driving around the radius.

By radius do you mean apex?

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:38 pm**

Not necessarily James, it's not always possible to apex on the road.

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:48 pm**

daz6215 wrote:It is my opinion that this method does not necessarily promote smoothness with regard to weight transfer of the vehicle, most students will accelerate hard around the corner compromising safety, the method I prefer is to turn in under braking to settle the car down and then release the brake prior to driving around the radius.

I'm wondering if smoothness is related to weight transfer or merely the transitions between controls? For example, I would say all three are valid techniques and can be performed smoothly and safely.

As a slight digression, I was introduced to the 2nd one - scrubbing off speed on the approach such that I can enter the corner on a firm throttle and shifting the weight towards the rear of the car. I quite like it

Chris

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:55 pm**

ScoobyChris wrote:I'm wondering if smoothness is related to weight transfer or merely the transitions between controls?
Chris

You might have a point Chris! :wink:

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:13 pm**

I tend to enter a bend under a light throttle and start to increase acceleration as the bend opens and straightens out, or as Jackie Stewart told James May, "Do not accelerate to gain speed until you can see that you can contineu to accelerate".

Position for a left hand bend. When in free flowing traffic but following others, the best view would be obtained from a position to the left, not towards the centre, especially if others are driving in a wider position. Although the accepted position for a left hand bend is towards the centre, the inexperienced might hold this position in the face of oncoming traffic.

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:44 pm**

daz6215 wrote:Cornering Technique- Roadcraft advocates using the system , Info-Position-speed-gear and then drive the curve with a light throttle setting to maintain speed,
It is my opinion that this method does not necessarily promote smoothness with regard to weight transfer of the vehicle, most students will accelerate hard around the corner compromising safety, the method I prefer is to turn in under braking to settle the car down and then release the brake prior to driving around the radius.

The transitions from braking to neutral to acceleration is easier when not steering. If someone can't do it smoothly in a straight line, how do you plan to teach them to do it while also steering. If a gear change has to be included, when is this to be done?

You seem to be saying that people should forcibly leave acceleration until late in the hazard. Perhaps it would be better to get them to be slow enough before the hazard.

As a risk in the Roadcraft method I would say that drivers generally aren't honest with themselves so far as appropriate entry speed is concerned, meaning in spite of the training they still go into hazards too quickly. Related to that is they mostly pay lip-service to being on the throttle before going into a hazard, and this is easy to see when the hazard is a bend. The foot may be tickling the accelerator pedal but it may as well be blowing in the wind for all the good it's doing.

Posted: **Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:50 pm**

The term "settling down" suggests to me that the car is destabilised - not conducive to a smooth drive. A smoothly driven car won't require settling down.

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:09 am**

Yes to Gareth's comments.

Also, braking into the bend is all very well if you are anywhere near the limit of grip and you want to minimise understeer. But on the road I hope to be nowhere near the limit of grip. My speed around the bend is generally dictated by vision and the vision is shortest before I enter the bend. Why would I want to continue braking when vision is no longer getting shorter? (Of course if the bend tightens or there are other hazards for which I have to slow, I must be at a speed which will allow me to stop within the distance I can see, taking into account that I now need to move my foot from the accelerator to the brake).

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:37 am**

In the System why does Position come before Speed? How often do you take up the position for a hazard before starting to change speed?

In the old days I learned a mnemonic for a System which started with Course (Can My Safety Be Given Away). Course made more sense to me at the start of the approach to a hazard because it implied making a plan for the position you would adopt later.

Comments?

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:51 am**

michael769 wrote:The term "settling down" suggests to me that the car is destabilised - not conducive to a smooth drive. A smoothly driven car won't require settling down.

No the car isn't destabilised on approach but if the corner is read incorrectly and entered to quick the abrubt change in direction without easing off slightly and or applying the brakes can cause unwanted lateral force.

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:52 am**

daz6215 wrote:
michael769 wrote:The term "settling down" suggests to me that the car is destabilised - not conducive to a smooth drive. A smoothly driven car won't require settling down.

No the car isn't destabilised on approach but if the corner is read incorrectly and entered to quick the abrubt change in direction without easing off slightly and or applying the brakes can cause unwanted lateral force.

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:53 am**

fungus wrote:I tend to enter a bend under a light throttle and start to increase acceleration as the bend opens and straightens out, or as Jackie Stewart told James May, "Do not accelerate to gain speed until you can see that you can contineu to accelerate".

Position for a left hand bend. When in free flowing traffic but following others, the best view would be obtained from a position to the left, not towards the centre, especially if others are driving in a wider position. Although the accepted position for a left hand bend is towards the centre, the inexperienced might hold this position in the face of oncoming traffic.

Agreed Fungus, so based on that, what advice would you give to the student ?

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:48 am**

daz6215 wrote:
No the car isn't destabilised on approach but if the corner is read incorrectly and entered to quick the abrubt change in direction without easing off slightly and or applying the brakes can cause unwanted lateral force.

Fair enough - but not what I would describe as a smooth approach. It seems to be the scenario you describe is when smoothness has already been lost and the driver is seeking to restore it. This will inevitably require a different approach to where smoothness is being maintained throughout the corner.

A key part of Roadcraft and the system is flexibility and the recognition that circumstances arise where the Roadcraft/System approach is not the correct approach and that the driver requires to modify his planned approach.

A common error when applying Roadcraft and the System is to seek to apply it rigidly even when circumstances are against it - this is an error as, as made clear in Roadcraft, a key part of the System is in applying flexibility and being willing to step outside the theoretical bounds when circumstances dictate. As I sometime like to say - in driving the only answer that is always wrong is any answer that contains the word "always". :-)

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:05 am**

waremark wrote:In the System why does Position come before Speed?

Speed is determined by vision. Vision is determined by position. Geometry, innit.

ADUK Archive

Critical Analysis

Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis

Re: Critical Analysis