Poor/thoughtless positioning at roundabout give way lines.

[TripleS]

Eco-driving is best achieved by not braking and not going fast (which is partly a consequence of not braking). That does require a lot of observation and anticipation, but in my view that's quite an additional constraint on top of "driving well" -- and quite different skill from safe progress. An interesting exercise. I wonder if the new beast could ever get more than 25mpg. I'm guessing not.

Not going fast? Yes, in general, but it depends on the terrain. In hilly country the downhill bits obviously help to combine speed and economy, but I find it beneficial to use a tiny bit of throttle down the hills so we build up a little more momentum quite cheaply, and this helps us to climb the next hill using less throttle than we would otherwise need. This is better than going down the hill with a closed throttle, and then opening up just as you're starting the next climb.

Apologies: I've rather got away from the matter of poor/thoughtless behaviour at roundabouts. I'll shut up for a bit.

[waremark]

Eco-driving is best achieved by not braking and not going fast (which is partly a consequence of not braking). That does require a lot of observation and anticipation, but in my view that's quite an additional constraint on top of "driving well" -- and quite different skill from safe progress. An interesting exercise. I wonder if the new beast could ever get more than 25mpg. I'm guessing not.

Not going fast? Yes, in general, but it depends on the terrain. In hilly country the downhill bits obviously help to combine speed and economy, but I find it beneficial to use a tiny bit of throttle down the hills so we build up a little more momentum quite cheaply, and this helps us to climb the next hill using less throttle than we would otherwise need. This is better than going down the hill with a closed throttle, and then opening up just as you're starting the next climb.

Apologies: I've rather got away from the matter of poor/thoughtless behaviour at roundabouts. I'll shut up for a bit.

That stuff was worth saying. I do try to be economical sometimes, but never for a whole journey like that. I don't have the patience. But I do tend most of the time to drive with the average journey mpg showing, and take delight whenever it is moving upwards.

[sussex2]

It wasn't so much a criticism more a point on how some people see attempting to drive economically. Or attempt to do it themselves.
Correct observation and good anticipation which are the hallmarks of better driving are in any case more economical; and as you will know you can still drive with spirit.

Agreed. Unless taken to extremes (which I wouldn't support), a bit of focus on eco-driving makes an interesting exercise at times. It doesn't have to be uniformly dull; and I am, after all, doing my bit to save the planet.

Frankly with the Chinese commissioning coal fired power stations at a startling rate and joined by a lot of other countries I wonder why we bother.
I wouldn't want to go back to the lead laden air of the 50s - 90s or the smog and wouldn't want to stop our efforts but I don't think we should beat ourselves up about it.

[sussex2]

Think ahead until next year when Gear Shift Indicators become standard on all new cars in the EU.
A lot of people are going to take the things as gospel.
They'll be changing gear according to speed rather than speed and situation even more than they do now.

[TripleS]

I do try to be economical sometimes, but never for a whole journey like that. I don't have the patience. But I do tend most of the time to drive with the average journey mpg showing, and take delight whenever it is moving upwards.

Me too; but then there's the disappointment felt when we have a setback that we hadn't expected. My reaction to that is sometimes to ditch the eco-driving crap, and enjoy booting it for a bit. I'll jolly well have a bit of satisfaction one way or another.

BTW, I don't know what the latest cruise control systems are like, but my suspicion is that they will not always yield better economy than might a reasonably skilled eco-driver; especially on the hilly stuff.

[waremark]

BTW, I don't know what the latest cruise control systems are like, but my suspicion is that they will not always yield better economy than might a reasonably skilled eco-driver; especially on the hilly stuff.

I am sure you are right about that. The general advice is to use cruise control for economy, but that presumes drivers with a normal skill level. The cruise control will not optimise consumption up and downhill, so a skilled economy driver could do better.

[Gareth]

The cruise control will not optimise consumption up and downhill, so a skilled economy driver could do better.

I've thought about this, probably a fair bit more than I should.

I tend to think that since the losses due to wind resistance are such a significant factor, the path to greater economy requires a lower average speed while at the same time closing the gap between the average speed and the peak speed as much as possible.

This is probably easier with a diesel engined vehicle: pick a speed such that you are in a relatively high gear and at relatively low engine speed while at the same time having enough torque to maintain a fairly constant speed as the terrain varies. This might not be the highest gear since the other constraints might mean you'd need to be traveling at too high a speed.

Clearly unnecessary braking is the enemy of economy, so must be minimised as much as possible.

Thinking about the going up and downhill in particular, you wouldn't want to be raising your speed going downhill as you'd be increasing the losses due to wind resistance. If you are willing to let the speed drop as you are going uphill then you're lengthening your journey. If you are willing to lengthen your journey, you'd probably be better off choosing a lower average speed ...

[TripleS]

I respect what Gareth says, and I agree.

I'm still a believer in picking up a bit more momentum cheaply, but of course it is right to be wary of losing some of the benefit through increased wind resistance.

[zadocbrown]

How many of you experience thoughtless positioning from drivers using the right hand approach lane at a roundabout. What I am particularly referring to, are drivers who when using the right hand lane, go over the give way line, blocking the view of the driver in the left hand lane. This is particularly infuriating when taking a learner onto a roundabout who, although able to cope with the roundabout, is unable to move off at the same speed as experienced drivers. This problem doesn't crop up so much if the RH lane is already stationary but the LH lane is empty, as you can position for a view between the two lead cars in the RH lane.

Playing devils advocate.
Could it not be that the car in the right hand lane is 'presenting' itself and more obvious to the learner? It will be away off and gone and visible ahead of a learner who may falter on the roundabout itself.
It will not be suddenly presenting alongside the pupil when they are concentrating on negotiating the hazard.

In a word, No! If they were thinking at that level they would hang back and let the learner get a view too, and still be away first.

[sussex2]

How many of you experience thoughtless positioning from drivers using the right hand approach lane at a roundabout. What I am particularly referring to, are drivers who when using the right hand lane, go over the give way line, blocking the view of the driver in the left hand lane. This is particularly infuriating when taking a learner onto a roundabout who, although able to cope with the roundabout, is unable to move off at the same speed as experienced drivers. This problem doesn't crop up so much if the RH lane is already stationary but the LH lane is empty, as you can position for a view between the two lead cars in the RH lane.

Playing devils advocate.
Could it not be that the car in the right hand lane is 'presenting' itself and more obvious to the learner? It will be away off and gone and visible ahead of a learner who may falter on the roundabout itself.
It will not be suddenly presenting alongside the pupil when they are concentrating on negotiating the hazard.

In a word, No! If they were thinking at that level they would hang back and let the learner get a view too, and still be away first.

I'd look at it as part and parcel of normal driving and perhaps a good bit of low speed manoeuvring practice for the pupil.

[fungus]

How many of you experience thoughtless positioning from drivers using the right hand approach lane at a roundabout. What I am particularly referring to, are drivers who when using the right hand lane, go over the give way line, blocking the view of the driver in the left hand lane. This is particularly infuriating when taking a learner onto a roundabout who, although able to cope with the roundabout, is unable to move off at the same speed as experienced drivers. This problem doesn't crop up so much if the RH lane is already stationary but the LH lane is empty, as you can position for a view between the two lead cars in the RH lane.

Playing devils advocate.
Could it not be that the car in the right hand lane is 'presenting' itself and more obvious to the learner? It will be away off and gone and visible ahead of a learner who may falter on the roundabout itself.
It will not be suddenly presenting alongside the pupil when they are concentrating on negotiating the hazard.

In a word, No! If they were thinking at that level they would hang back and let the learner get a view too, and still be away first.

I'd look at it as part and parcel of normal driving and perhaps a good bit of low speed manoeuvring
practice for the pupil.

If I wanted them to do low speed manoeuvring I would give them a five or seven point turn or some busy stop start traffic.

Quite frankly I find that type of behaviour bloody annoying. If I'm driving, it's not an issue, but with a learner who is not going to get going too quickly it is. It not only annoys the drivers behind the learner because the learner is not moving on to the roundabout due to no vision, but also puts unnecessary pressure on the learner. Yes the lead car in the RH lane will be away before the learner only to be replaced by another doing exactly the same thing. If the learner does creep out over the line they leave themselves exposed when the car in the RH lane moves and they don't. Give way lines at roundabouts have sufficient curve that there is absolutely no need for the driver in the LH lane to have their view blocked.

[sussex2]

As far as the traffic situation is concerned it could be caused by any number of factors and the presence of a learner may not be utmost on the other drivers mind.
Having assessed the situation I may do it myself in order to be off and gone and leave the learner to their deliberations.

[waremark]

As far as the traffic situation is concerned it could be caused by any number of factors and the presence of a learner may not be utmost on the other drivers mind.
Having assessed the situation I may do it myself in order to be off and gone and leave the learner to their deliberations.

I generally try not to crowd or harass learners, but I must admit that I am not sure I would have thought of Nigel's point. If it arises again I will try to remember to leave the driver in lane 1 a view.

[7db]

Can't the driver in LH lane hang back a little and take the view behind the lead in the RH lane?

I don't think that the RH lane driver is doing anything by presenting and taking as good a position as they can -- even if that blocks the view of someone in the LH lane. The person in the LH lane is stuck in traffic: they need to deal with that as best they can.

[MGF]

It is inconsiderate because it is unnecessary. I find that the view behind the offside vehicle is often insufficient to use safely.