Speeding

[TheInsanity1234]

My dad was caught speeding by a radar gun-toting police officer in an unmarked car at some point along Neath Road leaving Ystradgynlais in Wales, doing 47 mph in a 30 zone about three weeks ago.
However, I suspect this is actually a wholly unfair prosecution because of two reasons.
1: The law states that speed cameras must be clearly visible, so presumably a policeman holding a radar gun in an unmarked car could be an infringement of our rights?
2: From the point where you join the road (here: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=29+Station+Rd,+Ystradgynlais,+Swansea,+Powys+SA9,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=51.776855,-3.757389&spn=0.007475,0.01929&sll=51.776763,-3.757131&sspn=0.007528,0.01929&oq=29+Stat&t=h&geocode=FbANFgMdrKnG_w&hnear=29+Station+Rd,+Ystradgynlais,+Powys,+United+Kingdom&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.776784,-3.757269&panoid=-nw_OnpP1UGoif8i0qt7Lg&cbp=12,124.24,,0,-6.61) to where the speed limit changes (here: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=29+Station+Rd,+Ystradgynlais,+Swansea,+Powys+SA9,+United+Kingdom&daddr=Unknown+road&geocode=%3BFSTYFQMdnrDG_w&sll=51.763292,-3.755908&sspn=0.003738,0.009645&hl=en [that also includes the route, which is 1.1 miles long and is actually two different roads], there are absolutely no speed limit repeater signs whatsoever, despite the whole road seeming that of a 50/NSL road. For short stretches, there are street lights, and you do go through a cluster of small houses with frontages on the road, so that is reasonable, and my dad actually slowed down through that, but after that point, there is no clue that the speed limit is 30.
The other point that has to be mentioned is that when my dad went along the road, apparently he did not catch up to any cars on the road, and there were none in sight, so he couldn't have realised his mistake because there wasn't anyone else around to copy from.
I was not in the car with my dad when he was caught speeding, but I went along the same road with my mum a bit later in the week to inspect it so that we could build a case to appeal against any tickets.
(So far, we have not received a NoIP even though it's been at least 3 weeks since my dad was caught speeding.)
So, it'd be interesting to see what you guys think, and if you have any advice on how we could successfully appeal against any fines/points, that'd be great.
[NB: I'm not quite sure where is the appropriate section to post this, so if a moderator could kindly move this to where it should be if necessary, that would be lovely.]

[jameslb101]

How do you know he was caught if you haven't relieved a NIP yet? IANAL but I'm I doubt your claimed mitigating factors would stand up as a defense. Oh, and don't don't expect consensus here over the rights and wrongs of what your dad did. As I wasn't there at the time, I won't make judgement on the situation but was the road a road likely to have enforcement?

[Gareth]

1: The law states that speed cameras must be clearly visible, so presumably a policeman holding a radar gun in an unmarked car could be an infringement of our rights?

I'm not sure about this but I thought the 'visibility' rule only applies to manual speed detection systems operated by civilians.

[Gareth]

2: From the point where you join the road to where the speed limit changes there are absolutely no speed limit repeater signs whatsoever

Built-up area, houses fronting directly onto the road, street lights, the expectation of people on foot reinforced by the footpath on the section after the mini-roundabout.

In the past I'd have a expected a 40 mph limit from shortly after the mini-roundabout, but then dropping to 30 again for the next cluster of dwellings. After those, there is no footpath but then there's a handful of homes very close to the road. If you were living in one of the outlying houses how happy would you be to walk along the road at night, if the limit was 50 or NSL?

[hir]

... there are absolutely no speed limit repeater signs whatsoever, despite the whole road seeming that of a 50/NSL road. For short stretches, there are street lights, ...

I'm afraid your dad is guilty as charged [eventually].

There are street lights for the entire length of road until the NSL signs. The street lights certainly seem to comply with the ... "no more than 200 yards apart" criteria. This means that the road is 30mph by default unless signs indicate otherwise, which they don't. Any 30mph repeater signs on the road in question would therefore be illegal; that's why there aren't any.

Presumably this road is local to your dad and one with which he is very familiar. My advice to your dad, if he eventually receives a NIP, is to face up to it and pay the fine.

PS: Gareth is correct - visibility applies only to civilian operated speed cameras.

[trashbat]

1: The law states that speed cameras must be clearly visible, so presumably a policeman holding a radar gun in an unmarked car could be an infringement of our rights?

I'm not sure about this but I thought the 'visibility' rule only applies to manual speed detection systems operated by civilians.

I don't think there's any such law at all. What would it be part of?

There are possibly per-force policy decisions that say they will make their cameras high profile, but there's never going to be legislation that says policing of any kind must be openly visible.

[PeterE]

PS: Gareth is correct - visibility applies only to civilian operated speed cameras.

It is also only a guideline and has no legal force.

[MGF]

I assume from the OP that the Police Officer stopped his dad and if that was the case he would have been given a verbal NIP so no need for a postal one. Expect a conditional offer of 3 points and £100 penalty for 47 in a 30.

Is it worth looking for technical defences if your licence isn't at risk? I doubt the points will make much, if any, difference to his insurance premiums.

[Horse]

... there are absolutely no speed limit repeater signs whatsoever, despite the whole road seeming that of a 50/NSL road. For short stretches, there are street lights, ...

[eventually].

There are street lights for the entire length of road until the NSL signs. The street lights certainly seem to comply with the ... "no more than 200 yards apart" criteria.

Use TSRGB (Traffic Signs Regulations? Great Britain) to determine appropriate white line length and spacing, measure from Google Streetview?

[TheInsanity1234]

How do you know he was caught if you haven't relieved a NIP yet? IANAL but I'm I doubt your claimed mitigating factors would stand up as a defense. Oh, and don't don't expect consensus here over the rights and wrongs of what your dad did. As I wasn't there at the time, I won't make judgement on the situation but was the road a road likely to have enforcement?

He was stopped by the policeman.

2: From the point where you join the road to where the speed limit changes there are absolutely no speed limit repeater signs whatsoever

Built-up area, houses fronting directly onto the road, street lights, the expectation of people on foot reinforced by the footpath on the section after the mini-roundabout.

In the past I'd have a expected a 40 mph limit from shortly after the mini-roundabout, but then dropping to 30 again for the next cluster of dwellings. After those, there is no footpath but then there's a handful of homes very close to the road. If you were living in one of the outlying houses how happy would you be to walk along the road at night, if the limit was 50 or NSL?

Yes, he was doing 30 in the village itself, but when you leave it, it turns into a road that you would presume has a 50 limit/NSL for the majority of the stretch. It goes uphill, very obviously out of the village, and there aren't any houses with direct frontages on to the road, just driveways e.t.c, then there's that cluster of houses which my dad says he slowed down through, which is reasonable enough, but after that it opens up again and seems like it should be 50 at the very least.
Personally, I wouldn't mind too much as I'm not stupid, and I would take care to wear bright/high-vis stuff.

I'm afraid your dad is guilty as charged [eventually].

There are street lights for the entire length of road until the NSL signs. The street lights certainly seem to comply with the ... "no more than 200 yards apart" criteria. This means that the road is 30mph by default unless signs indicate otherwise, which they don't. Any 30mph repeater signs on the road in question would therefore be illegal; that's why there aren't any.

Presumably this road is local to your dad and one with which he is very familiar. My advice to your dad, if he eventually receives a NIP, is to face up to it and pay the fine.

PS: Gareth is correct - visibility applies only to civilian operated speed cameras.

I've been along it, and there are only clusters of street lights ever now and then, and quite a few of them are hidden by the trees so there's not much chance of spotting them in daylight.

Also, it isn't local to him, he was driving along it because he was staying in the village for a weekend due to his caving group organising a trip out, and it coincided with the beginning of our holiday, so he was driving back to our rented holiday house. Suffice to say, it dampened the rest of the holiday slightly.

I assume from the OP that the Police Officer stopped his dad and if that was the case he would have been given a verbal NIP so no need for a postal one. Expect a conditional offer of 3 points and £100 penalty for 47 in a 30.

Is it worth looking for technical defences if your licence isn't at risk? I doubt the points will make much, if any, difference to his insurance premiums.

The police officer said that they would go back and write it up then send a letter through the post.
My mum wants to appeal against it as she was wrongly prosecuted for speeding in very similar circumstances a (long) while ago, and she is annoyed by the unfairness and doesn't want my dad to develop the same paranoia that she has towards speed and speed limits.

[Gareth]

doesn't want my dad to develop the same paranoia that she has towards speed and speed limits.

Paranoia towards (adherence to) speed limits is necessary if you want to keep your licence these days. If you want to 'speed' you need to accurately identify the prevailing limit, you ought to be good at judging the safety implications, and be good at assessing how likely the limit is to be policed.

In this instance, just because a person doesn't spot a system of streetlights doesn't mean that they can't be spotted if someone is looking out for them. If one is uncertain it is much safer to err on the side of assuming the lowest likely limit.


ETA: limits are set on an area basis, not by individual roads. Being split by a mini-roundabout doesn't make this two roads, either.

[martine]

I've just 'driven' (on streetview) the road between the 2 points you mention and I can see street lights throughout it's entire length. Many of the lights are attached to wooden telegraph poles which may make them easy to miss.

There are no speed limit signs when entering the areas of houses (where you would expect it to be 30) and none on the side roads in the built-up areas (again where you might expect it to be 30/20) if the main road had a higher limit.

Sorry but I think there are plenty of clues this is a 30.

It would be helpful if the local authority would put "30" roundels on the road at regular intervals in the less built-up areas as a reminder...but legally I don't think your Dad can expect to win any appeal on the grounds you mention.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

My dad was caught speeding by a radar gun-toting police officer in an unmarked car at some point along Neath Road leaving Ystradgynlais in Wales, doing 47 mph in a 30 zone.
However, I suspect this is actually a wholly unfair prosecution because of two reasons.
1: The law states that speed cameras must be clearly visible, so presumably a policeman holding a radar gun in an unmarked car could be an infringement of our rights?
2: From the point where you join the road (here: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=29+Station+Rd,+Ystradgynlais,+Swansea,+Powys+SA9,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=51.776855,-3.757389&spn=0.007475,0.01929&sll=51.776763,-3.757131&sspn=0.007528,0.01929&oq=29+Stat&t=h&geocode=FbANFgMdrKnG_w&hnear=29+Station+Rd,+Ystradgynlais,+Powys,+United+Kingdom&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.776784,-3.757269&panoid=-nw_OnpP1UGoif8i0qt7Lg&cbp=12,124.24,,0,-6.61) to where the speed limit changes (here: at point B on the route, https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=29+Station+Rd,+Ystradgynlais,+Swansea,+Powys+SA9,+United+Kingdom&daddr=Unknown+road&geocode=%3BFSTYFQMdnrDG_w&sll=51.763292,-3.755908&sspn=0.003738,0.009645&hl=en [that also includes the route, which is 1.1 miles long and is actually two different roads], there are absolutely no speed limit repeater signs whatsoever, despite the whole road seeming that of a 50/NSL road. For short stretches, there are street lights, and you do go through a cluster of small houses with frontages on the road, so that is reasonable, and my dad actually slowed down through that, but after that point, there is no clue that the speed limit is 30.
The other point that has to be mentioned is that when my dad went along the road, apparently he did not catch up to any cars on the road, and there were none in sight, so he couldn't have realised his mistake because there wasn't anyone else around to copy from.

Eh?! Who's responsible for observing the speed limit? Perhaps your Dad would like to employ another driver with better observation skills to drive along in front of him everywhere he goes?

I was not in the car with my dad when he was caught speeding, but I went along the same road with my mum a bit later in the week to inspect it so that we could build a case to appeal against any tickets.
(So far, we have not received a NoIP even though it's been at least 3 weeks since my dad was caught speeding.)
So, it'd be interesting to see what you guys think.
Thanks.

I'm sorry but the initial Google link you posted clearly shows a narrow residential area with streetlighting - what on earth would make you or your Dad imagine the speed limit there was anything other than 30 or less?

The second link shows a route starting from roughly the point in the first link to the point where the road becomes NSL and as far as I can see, the whole route has streetlights. There is no obligation for there to be repeaters in these circumstances. In the town it's pretty clear that it's 30, when you get out into the more sparsely populated roads you have to keep asking yourself the questions to establish the speed limit:

• What was the last speed limit I was aware of? (stick to that until a new speed limit is established)
• Are there repeaters? (if yes skip next question and apply that limit)
• Are there streetlights? (If yes, speed limit is 30, if no, speed limit is NSL)

This is simple Highway Code knowledge, but something not everybody has or is used to deploying. Suggest to your Dad he considers some form of AD tuition. If he gets offered a driver awareness course, see if you can persuade him to take it - and THEN take some AD tuition.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Yes, he was doing 30 in the village itself, but when you leave it, it turns into a road that you would presume has a 50 limit/NSL for the majority of the stretch. It goes uphill, very obviously out of the village, and there aren't any houses with direct frontages on to the road, just driveways e.t.c, then there's that cluster of houses which my dad says he slowed down through, which is reasonable enough, but after that it opens up again and seems like it should be 50 at the very least.
Personally, I wouldn't mind too much as I'm not stupid ...

Well, you see what happens when you presume ...

Not stupid, just inexperienced. Unless the limit changes, don't speed up. If you're uncertain what the limit is, don't make up your own, work it out!

I've been along it, and there are only clusters of street lights ever now and then, and quite a few of them are hidden by the trees so there's not much chance of spotting them in daylight.

Well, I can see them on Streetview. As Martin says quite a few of them are on the telegraph poles, but that doesn't make them invisible. I believe SpecSavers do very reasonable glasses these days...

[PeterE]

Paranoia towards (adherence to) speed limits is necessary if you want to keep your licence these days. If you want to 'speed' you need to accurately identify the prevailing limit, you ought to be good at judging the safety implications, and be good at assessing how likely the limit is to be policed.

And the correct identification of speed limits is one of the things you will learn from AD tuition. It's probably also true to say that propensity to exceed speed limits doesn't necessarily correlate with likelihood of being caught.

It would be helpful if the local authority would put "30" roundels on the road at regular intervals in the less built-up areas as a reminder...but legally I don't think your Dad can expect to win any appeal on the grounds you mention.

Yes, if compliance really is the objective, it would be useful to place some kind of reminder in locations where the general level of development doesn't obviously indicate 30, but unfortunately the current regulations strongly discourage this. I have occasionally seen signs saying "This is still a 30 limit", though.