Speeding

[TheInsanity1234]

doesn't want my dad to develop the same paranoia that she has towards speed and speed limits.

Paranoia towards (adherence to) speed limits is necessary if you want to keep your licence these days. If you want to 'speed' you need to accurately identify the prevailing limit, you ought to be good at judging the safety implications, and be good at assessing how likely the limit is to be policed.

No, what she means is that when she got done for speeding, her driving actually became worse, because she was worried about sticking to the speed limits to the point that she would completely miss hazards because she was worried about avoiding another 3 points and £60 fine.
That is exactly what is [albeit slowly] happening to my dad, ever since he's been caught, he has started to miss things and I've had to warn him of them because he's too busy trying to look for signs and the spacing between the bloody street lights and working out whether it's 30, 40, 50 or whatever the hell it is. How is that fair, huh?

[waremark]

"How is that fair, huh?"

I am afraid fairness or otherwise does not come into it; this is the reality of driving today. It is a downside of the speed limit enforcement regime, but as implementation of the regime has coincided with a period of significant reduction in traffic fatalities there is no likelihood of this regime being changed.

One recent development which I regard as good news is the upwards extension of the range of speeds for which attendance at a speed awareness course will be offered as an alternative to points. However, it is unlikely to stretch as far as 47 in a 30.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

... he's too busy trying to look for signs and the spacing between the bloody street lights and working out whether it's 30, 40, 50 or whatever the hell it is. How is that fair, huh?

You mean he's now learning better observation skills that will serve him well if he puts them to good use. Once learnt, they won't disappear again, hopefully. He's just more awake to the need to look at stuff he probably hasn't been looking at for many years. It's the same with most drivers we get on AD training. Send him to the IAM or RoADAR and he'll learn to actually enjoy being a better driver.

Don't bother with the "spacing between the bloody streetlights". Except on a motorway, or a big urban dual carriageway with other signage, it mostly doesn't matter. On a suburban road with no other signs, don't bother looking at the distance, just assume streetlights mean 30. That's the way it's always been (since at least the 1930s) - the clause about spacing is just to make it legal and watertight.

[hir]

... That is exactly what is [albeit slowly] happening to my dad, ever since he's been caught, he has started to miss things and I've had to warn him of them because he's too busy trying to look for signs and the spacing between the bloody street lights and working out whether it's 30, 40, 50 or whatever the hell it is. How is that fair, huh?

The best advice anyone could give your mum and dad would be for each to sign-up for an IAM "Skill for Life" course (£139 until October, thereafter £149), or a similar local RoSPA course.

One of the more significant components of these courses is the coaching for improved observation and the gathering, using and giving of information about what is going on around you. The course will assist your parents to deal with what is happening around them on the road in a more confident and systematic manner. Although these courses are billed as "advanced driving" don't let that put them off. The courses are intended for anyone wishing to improve their driving and observation skills. It is almost guaranteed to banish their "paranoia". You could sign-up for the course as well.

[MGF]

It's a "restricted road" - defined as one with streetlights (in much fancier language) less than 200 yards apart. Repeaters are not to be placed on restricted roads. I'm not sure how they de-restrict it, but obviously they have some procedure they can go through.

The relevant authority needs to, simply, direct that a restricted road is derestricted or that an unrestricted road is restricted. These directions overrule the definition of a restricted road.

After further reading my (not-so) bright idea has been thwarted by Direction 11 of the TSGDR 2002.
That direction expressly forbids the use of repeaters on any road which has a 30 mph limit and also has streetlights. The only benefit of derestriction would be the use of 30 mph signs at each end of the derestricted section of road.

[Gareth]

The only benefit of derestriction would be the use of 30 mph signs at each end of the derestricted section of road.

Surely this then allows breaking up a single long restricted section with many short derestricted sections ...

[michael769]

DfT guidlines advise against short sections of limits.

Likewise they discourage using terminals unless the limit actually changes.

I believe that the white paint roundels can be used though. They have the advantage of being more visible than repeaters.

I have went though the entire route on GSV and there is street lighting throughout with no gaps. It is also, for the most part urban in character, those gaps in housing are still lit and that with the lack of terminal signs should make it quite obvious to anyone familiar with The Highway Code that the limit is 30.

OP - I don't see any viable defense to the allegation, and my advice is to take the COFP if it is offered.

If he takes it to court upon conviction, the magistrates guidlines call for a fine equivalent to 100% of weekly income plus 4-6 points or a 7-28 day ban, a mandatory victim surcharge of 10% and prosecution costs. CPS guidlines for the prosecution costs are £85 for a guilty plea or £620-£930 for a full trial following a not guilty plea.

[jont]

DfT guidlines advise against short sections of limits.

Likewise they discourage using terminals unless the limit actually changes.

I believe that the white paint roundels can be used though. They have the advantage of being more visible than repeaters.

If only LAs actually paid any attention to the guidelines . Given their attitude towards inappropriate use of the limits themselves, you might have though they'd have a similarly lackadaisical attitude towards signage. Of course if that poor signage contributed to their scamera revenue (and even more so the protection racket like behaviour of letting people off in return for even more money), you couldn't possibly argue about a conflict of interests could you?

[michael769]

Local councils don't see a penny from enforcement.

Since hypothecation was put a stop to several years go, fines go to the General Fund (central government), and the only folks who make any money from courses is the private companies who run them.

IME councils use speed limits as a way for elected members to stop locals giving them earache about the traffic in their backyards. Some even believe BRAKE's nonsense.

[jont]

Since hypothecation was put a stop to several years go, fines go to the General Fund (central government), and the only folks who make any money from courses is the private companies who run them.

IME councils use speed limits as a way for elected members to stop locals giving them earache about the traffic in their backyards. Some even believe BRAKE's nonsense.

Indeed. Although I never got round to looking at the members register of interests at our local council to see if any held positions with the various training companies

[MGF]

The only benefit of derestriction would be the use of 30 mph signs at each end of the derestricted section of road.

Surely this then allows breaking up a single long restricted section with many short derestricted sections ...

I wasn't suggesting that derestriction should be used in that way, just observing that the benefits are limited to signs at each end of the derestricted section. There may be exceptional circumstances where this would be useful but it obviously isn't a substitute for repeaters generally.

[MGF]

...I have went though the entire route on GSV and there is street lighting throughout with no gaps. It is also, for the most part urban in character, those gaps in housing are still lit and that with the lack of terminal signs should make it quite obvious to anyone familiar with The Highway Code that the limit is 30..

I think plenty of drivers would assume that the limit has changed by the time they had arrived at this point.

[michael769]

Only if they have never read the Highway Code! The streetlights are not exactly hard to spot.

[TripleS]

I can't offer any useful comments to TI about this case, though it does sound as if there was a bit of carelessness in terms of failing to appreciate what the limit was likely to be. Even so, I hope the outcome isn't too painful.

Anyhow, while out walking this afternoon on a rural road (single carriageway, single vehicle width) I saw four speed limit signs, white disc, red border, all showing a black 20.

Now I thought that to have legal effect, speed limit signs needed to be in pairs, one each side of the road; but these were on alternate sides of the road, 200/300 yards apart, and they were the small signs, like the size normally used for 40 mph repeaters. So, do the ones I've described sound to be in accordance with the law? I suspect they are not.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[hir]

... You could sign-up for the course as well.

Please accept my apologies. It has been pointed out to me that you haven't yet passed your driving test - my suggestion was therefore not appropriate.

Good luck when you do start learning to drive, and when the time is right have a serious think about signing up for one of the advanced driving courses. It's never too early to start one of these courses.

It's good to see someone of your age engaging so enthusiastically with driving relating matters.