I have a friend...

[martine]

...no really it's not me but I could quite understand I might get into the same situation...

He was travelling in Worthing in extremely heavy traffic (as in minutes to move a few metres - people getting out of cars etc) approaching a traffic light controlled junction with a yellow box. Due to the traffic light sequence, his yellow box exit was continually being filled by joining traffic meaning he was stationary for several traffic light cycles. When he spotted a gap opening up ahead, he took a calculated gamble and moved forward - but the car ahead didn't move as expected and he got caught with the very rear of his car being left overhanging the yellow box.

The yellow box camera got him and he's now received a PCN.

Does he have grounds for appeal? What would you have done in the same situation?

I should point out the person in question is a retired traffic police and ex-IAM examiner and feels pretty hard done by!

[Slink_Pink]

I've been in a similar situation a few times, fortunately without the camera! My method is to wait as long as possible, bearing in mind the increasing rage of following drivers, then if the sort of gap you describe appears (or looks as if it will) I will crawl across the junction as slowly as possible giving time for the gap to develop or hopefully not committing to that exit path if there is any other possible lane out of the other side.

I've been somewhat tempted occasionally to just stick my hazard lights on, get out and open the bonnet and pretend to fix something. At least then the following driver will pass (likely with some choice words). It hasn't come to this yet, but it's always an option

[trashbat]

I've been somewhat tempted occasionally to just stick my hazard lights on, get out and open the bonnet and pretend to fix something.

Who needs to pretend?

[martine]

I've been somewhat tempted occasionally to just stick my hazard lights on, get out and open the bonnet and pretend to fix something.

Who needs to pretend?

We haven't all got Alfa's you know...

[trashbat]

My Alfa has been very well behaved, thank you very much. In the 40 miles since it last broke down. And after spending £1800 on it.

As far as your friend is concerned, I sympathise, especially if pressured by other drivers. Ultimately though, what can you do - it's an objective offence. I personally wouldn't bother pursuing it, except maybe to waste the traffic planners' time with a whinge about being permanently stuck.

[Carbon Based]

Feels a bit close to a no win situation (even before the fine). You can't go because of the actions of other drivers, who may or may not get a similar fine, and you don't feel you can wait because of the drivers behind who will, sooner or later start indicating their impatience.

In the same situation: if the traffic is that bad, box junction or not, I might consider aborting that route, even if only long enough for a break. Not a great solution, I admit.

On a similar note, I've found a few such yellow box junctions where a combination of worn paint, road camber and low driving position mean that it is not possible to see the end of the box before entering it. Not fun.

[martine]

Just had an email from the driver in question. He's gathering evidence for an appeal and using 'freedom of information' asked how many drivers have been issued PCN at this yellow box over various weekends. It seems the traffic was particularly bad when he drove across due to a nearby flyover being closed due to road works.

Number of PCNs issued
- Normal weekend: 48
- When flyover closed: 558 - that's over £30K in fines for one weekend

[fungus]

Number of PCNs issued
- Normal weekend: 48
- When flyover closed: 558 - that's over £30K in fines for one weekend

That's a nice little earner.

[martine]

Number of PCNs issued
- Normal weekend: 48
- When flyover closed: 558 - that's over £30K in fines for one weekend

That's a nice little earner.

Yes and I think what annoys my friend most is, when the traffic is this snarled up, the yellow box does nothing for road safety or traffic flow yet thousands of drivers are being penalised. Can't be right.

[Big Err]

Just had an email from the driver in question. He's gathering evidence for an appeal and using 'freedom of information' asked how many drivers have been issued PCN at this yellow box over various weekends. It seems the traffic was particularly bad when he drove across due to a nearby flyover being closed due to road works.

Number of PCNs issued
- Normal weekend: 48
- When flyover closed: 558 - that's over £30K in fines for one weekend

I think we've had this conversation before Martin.. Looking at the statistics, instead of issuing over 500 FPNs, they should be speaking to the Designers of the Traffic Management for the flyover works.

[Kimosabe]

It's not your friend who is to blame for poor driving but the design of the junction by the sounds of it. Do you have a link to a map of the junction?

As far as PCNs go I have just one rule. Always appeal, object, complain, make as big a noise and for as long as possible, because tribunal adjudicators can be very reasonable people when you have stood your ground for several months.

With the PCN data available, I would imagine that the bizarre situation of fining drivers (in this situation) would prove that fines don't resolve the solution of how drivers are meant to navigate poorly designed junctions. Some people simply cannot be bothered with the appeals process and would rather pay a fine for something which fines don't resolve. Councils rely on this.

As an aside to this, I hold an unbroken record of never having paid a PCN, I haven't had that many but over the years, I've avoided paying possible hundreds of pounds. The last one took 9 months to get to tribunal and the adjudicator threw the council out of the room after 10 minutes because the scruffy twerp (literally) from the Council's legal team began by being 10 minutes late for the hearing, then he defended the wrong case, then had no explanation for why so much money (around £6,000 and rising) had been spent on such a ridiculously clear-cut case (resident's parking bay, loading and unloading) before finding in my favour. I had the local press (I was in the local rag twice over it, photos and all), local and national radio and a couple of bloggers making noise about it. Inter-departmental arse-elbow navigation failures are what your friend is relying on. They are not rare! The case was found in my favour and the Council then took out a separate proceeding against me, possibly in the hope that they'd eventually prove something. The Court (Northants) had already found in my favour, the tribunal adjudicator had found in my favour and the Council had lost but this didn't deter them because they couldn't afford a negative result having just wasted thousands of pounds. That case was dropped when I gave them notice that I would happily attend any Court hearing and that their legal twerp would need to stand as a witness. So if it's just a matter of paying a fine to save yet more money being squandered by Councils, it's a fair argument in that sense but wholly unethical all the same.

The thing is, if your friend can prove that he acted reasonably, he has a defense and I believe that is enough for him to go through the appeals process. One thing though, if he does go for an appeal, tell him to not become emotionally involved or to succumb to the large volumes of intimidating fear-mail he will receive, because he will definitely be given the run around and getting stressed about it is what causes many people to just pay up for the sake of their own sanity. Councils rely on this too, which I believe is why they do it. Writing to the council is generally not a good idea because letters will most likely be binned immediately if not part of a form. He could compile a case by using googlemaps and photos of where the alleged offense took place. Tell him to make sure he gets everything the Council says in writing, as phone conversations are difficult to explain after the event. Use local media because it's free and they love a good local drama.

Hope this helps.

[martine]

Inter-departmental arse-elbow navigation failures

Thanks Kimsosabe - I've passed your advice on - very interesting.