Second fatality within a month.

[sussex2]

Interesting.
My father was one of the founders of CHIRP (Confidential human factors incident reporting) a system whereby pilots could report incidents anonymously).
Over years access to the reports would have helped a lot of people in the aviation business.

[Horse]

I bet others on here are better informed, but I think the roads folk do have 3D scene image capture, and parties such as vehicle manufacturers (at least in some countries) do show an active investigative interest in fatal accidents involving their vehicles.

I believe Volvo has a team in Sweden that goes out to accidents.

There are two DfT funded teams in the UK.

[martine]

A fatal plane crash is hundreds of lives in one moment, mostly people who were owed (and paid for) a duty of care, often avoidable with just one correction. There's also a lot of money in it - cost and liability. On the roads, although they quickly add up to many more, each car crash is just a few people in isolation, in varied and complex circumstances, and the apparent cash at stake is low.

No most air accidents involve no loss of life at all - they are still investigated and recommendations made. A further chunk involve crashes where most people survive - it's a common misconception that once something goes wrong in an aircraft (or piloting) then all the occupants are doomed. The majority of air crashes are primarily due to pilot error - much like RTCs.

There are differences of course between air and road 'incidents' and the way the attitude and system works...I am suggesting we should make RTC investigation more like air - why not?

[martine]

The other large diffeence between the two forms of investigations is that most(?) Air Accidents involve Professionals through out - Pilots, Air Traffic Control, Maintenance Teams etc. Each one has clearly defined roles, rules to adhere to and responsibilities. Meanwhile the roads are full of Amateurs (many of us included).

I'm not sure that's true actually...I wouldn't be surprised if most were with non-professional pilots at the controls but I don't have the figures to hand. Anyone?

[trashbat]

No most air accidents involve no loss of life at all - they are still investigated and recommendations made. A further chunk involve crashes where most people survive - it's a common misconception that once something goes wrong in an aircraft (or piloting) then all the occupants are doomed. The majority of air crashes are primarily due to pilot error - much like RTCs.

There are differences of course between air and road 'incidents' and the way the attitude and system works...I am suggesting we should make RTC investigation more like air - why not?

Hence 'fatal plane crash'. The piece you quoted was about there being more at stake in any one instance of things going wrong.

[trashbat]

The other large diffeence between the two forms of investigations is that most(?) Air Accidents involve Professionals through out - Pilots, Air Traffic Control, Maintenance Teams etc. Each one has clearly defined roles, rules to adhere to and responsibilities. Meanwhile the roads are full of Amateurs (many of us included).

I'm not sure that's true actually...I wouldn't be surprised if most were with non-professional pilots at the controls but I don't have the figures to hand. Anyone?

https://www.ntsb.gov/data/aviation_stats.html

Obviously some GA flights will be by ATPL holders etc, but probably the vast majority aren't.

[martine]

Interesting.
My father was one of the founders of CHIRP (Confidential human factors incident reporting) a system whereby pilots could report incidents anonymously).
Over years access to the reports would have helped a lot of people in the aviation business.

Yes and a fine system that is too. It probably only really comes into play when a professional pilot is under pressure by their employer to do something illegal or bad practice. I'm not sure that applies to most RTCs - lorries/buses excepted.

[Ancient]

Interesting.
My father was one of the founders of CHIRP (Confidential human factors incident reporting) a system whereby pilots could report incidents anonymously).
Over years access to the reports would have helped a lot of people in the aviation business.

Yes and a fine system that is too. It probably only really comes into play when a professional pilot is under pressure by their employer to do something illegal or bad practice. I'm not sure that applies to most RTCs - lorries/buses excepted.

Fatigue factor for travelling consultants/sales? Pressure to make too many visits per week or not to incur the costs of staying over? Personally I think this could be a cause of many car incidents. My father drove all over southern England managing departments for a large supermarket and frequently left at 5am to return after 11pm.
What are the rules on combined office work and driving? How many keep to them (or even know them)?

[martine]

What are the rules on combined office work and driving? How many keep to them (or even know them)?

There are no official rules for car drivers...but you could well be right...about 400 fatalaties per year are people driving for work yet the HSE seem to make more noise about building site risks.

[michael769]

What are the rules on combined office work and driving? How many keep to them (or even know them)?

There are no formal rules for non-commercial (ie not required to have a tachograph) vehicles.

For commercials office work would have to be recorded as "other work" and be subject to the relevant restrictions on rest periods.

[triquet]

What are the rules on combined office work and driving? How many keep to them (or even know them)?

There are no official rules for car drivers...but you could well be right...about 400 fatalaties per year are people driving for work yet the HSE seem to make more noise about building site risks.

Mmm. One might conjecture that driver fatigue might figure rather high in this ...

[MGF]

The offical rules can be found in the Health and Safety at Work Act and the Management of Safety at Work Regulations. No prescribed hours but an employer must assess and reduce risk.

Plenty of info. here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg382.pdf

[michael769]

Mmm. One might conjecture that driver fatigue might figure rather high in this ...

Probably also a degree of time pressure....

[triquet]

Mmm. One might conjecture that driver fatigue might figure rather high in this ...

Probably also a degree of time pressure....

I suspect also it is highly dependent on time of day. On the Oxfordshire A34 you see some very interesting "progress" being made at 6:00 am and 19:00 - 20:00 in the evening as the "area managers" boot around in their Audis and Beemers ...

[Horse]

No most air accidents involve no loss of life at all

I had a trainee who dropped into conversation: "I've never crashed a bike - crashed a plane though"