Was I in the wrong?

[TheInsanity1234]

So, this event occurred on Wednesday evening, as I was driving back from Witney to Lambourn (with both parents in the car).
(Reminder that I'm currently a Learner).
I was driving along Buckland Road, and I got to the junction with the A420 (this junction).
On the approach to the junction, I saw a sign telling me roadworks were up ahead, and that joining traffic was not signal controlled. Fine.

When I reached the junction, I looked both ways, and the lane furthest away from me, plus the turning section were all closed off, so there was only one lane.
I looked left, saw a queue of maybe 3 cars waiting at the lights which were set just before the beginning of the turning lane (approximately here), and I could see the lights in that direction were red (cars were stopped and showed no sign of setting off).
I then looked to my right, and saw a lorry waiting at the lights set just after the central marking section closed up (approximately here). The lorry was not moving, and also showed no signs of setting off - bear in mind that I must've arrived at the precise moment that both sets of lights were showing red, as there were no cars passing in either direction, and there was no suggestion of movement in both directions.
I then decided that I could go, as there was no sign of movement from either direction, and no suggestion that the lights were going to change.

As I started to turn right, and got no more than half a metre away from the junction, the lorry's headlights lifted ever so slightly (suggesting the driver was preparing to go), and I realised his light must be on amber, so I thought I'll accelerate quickly so I can get out of his way and minimise my obstruction to him.

I was maybe 5 metres away from the lorry when I saw the lorry starting to shift over so he could get around the light, I floored it and made it through the gap between the cones and his front bumper with inches to spare.

My parents both told me that I was doing nothing wrong, as it was clear that nobody was moving when I'd pulled out, and that the lorry driver must've either been not paying any attention, or just attempting to scare me because I'd dared to pull out (presumably) while his lights were changing, thus preventing him from going immediately.

Bear in mind, I had come to a complete stop, and spent maybe 2 seconds looking in either direction before pulling out, so it wasn't a case of trying to steal a gap to save a second or two in my journey.

This is not a rant against lorry drivers, and nor is it me bragging about my quick thinking that saved the day. It is merely just me asking what would've you guys done in those circumstances.

I look forwards to your replies!

[trashbat]

The safest thing to do here is wait for traffic going in your chosen direction to begin moving (or opposing traffic to stop), and then either go in front or join behind, so that you don't get caught out by a conflict with opposing traffic in exactly this kind of way. Of course, any traffic waiting behind you may not appreciate this caution.

I imagine the lorry driver didn't know that joining traffic wasn't controlled, so from his perspective, the problem was that the timing of the lights was slightly inappropriate, rather than any choice on your part. He shouldn't have moved and wouldn't have gained anything from it.

If it really was a close call, did you consider using the horn or similar?

At the highest level, it sounds like you identified the potential risk in advance, and then the actual risk immediately as it began to develop, and ultimately no harm came of it. I wouldn't go so far as to blanket state that you didn't get anything wrong, as a probably avoidable conflict did occur, but it doesn't sound like much of an error. Good that you're probing it too.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Impossible to tell but one of:

- waited a little longer to see what the state of play was.
- exactly as you did, but seeing it as a lesson for next time, rather than congratulating myself about my "quick thinking". Perhaps some slower thinking, and consideration of the situation, might have led to a different course of action.

Sometimes there's only one thing to do and it's obvious. Most of the time there are multiple possible actions, and a little time spent deciding may be the difference between safety and danger.

It's one of those experiences you will draw on later in your driving career. Last time I was in this situation X happened .... You've recognised that by posting here. Resist the temptation to see yourself as a driving god each time you just cheat death, but take each occasion as an opportunity to learn.

Sounds very pompous. Not meant to.

[triquet]

Mmm. I know that junction well, and it can be quite difficult to get out of even without temporary lights adding to the confusion. The A420 is an unpleasant road and the large chunks of 50 make people impatient.

If the lorry was a large red tipper with EARTHLINE emblazoned on the front, they come from the quarry near Stanford in the Vale, and they have quite a reputation for brisk driving ....

[martine]

Great advice above but I'd also be concerned about your choice of accelerating into a closing gap...sounds like a second or two later and you would have had a collision with the cones or lorry or both.

[TheInsanity1234]

The safest thing to do here is wait for traffic going in your chosen direction to begin moving (or opposing traffic to stop), and then either go in front or join behind, so that you don't get caught out by a conflict with opposing traffic in exactly this kind of way. Of course, any traffic waiting behind you may not appreciate this caution.

Indeed, and I had considered doing that, but for some reason, I thought I'd have plenty of time to go, since I'd spent like 4 seconds looking.

If it really was a close call, did you consider using the horn or similar?

No, my first thought was "Oh s**t", and my second thought was "Get out of his way!!"
I really didn't think of the horn until after I'd gone back on my side of the road and was well out of his way! I didn't bother using it then, because it would've just made it seem like I was trying to rebuke the driver, rather than warning him of my presence!

I wouldn't go so far as to blanket state that you didn't get anything wrong, as a probably avoidable conflict did occur, but it doesn't sound like much of an error. Good that you're probing it too.

Hence why I'm posting here, because I didn't believe my parents when they said I did nothing wrong, because I was wondering to myself, that perhaps I should've taken a different course of action that would've avoided the incident entirely! Yes, I probably wouldn't be blamed for the accident legally, but at the same time I could've done something slightly different that means it wouldn't even have happened!

Impossible to tell but one of:

- waited a little longer to see what the state of play was.

That would've been the best choice for these circumstances!

- exactly as you did, but seeing it as a lesson for next time, rather than congratulating myself about my "quick thinking". Perhaps some slower thinking, and consideration of the situation, might have led to a different course of action.

I did say I wasn't congratulating myself, because a slightly different course of action would've avoided it entirely, so my thinking wasn't the best!

It's one of those experiences you will draw on later in your driving career. Last time I was in this situation X happened .... You've recognised that by posting here. Resist the temptation to see yourself as a driving god each time you just cheat death, but take each occasion as an opportunity to learn.

I'll only view myself as a driving god when I've done 50 years of driving without one near miss!

Sounds very pompous. Not meant to.

Certainly didn't come across that way to me!

If the lorry was a large red tipper with EARTHLINE emblazoned on the front, they come from the quarry near Stanford in the Vale, and they have quite a reputation for brisk driving ....

I've seen these lorries going about! I'm curious as to how they avoid being caught by the silly number of cameras in the 50's!

Great advice above but I'd also be concerned about your choice of accelerating into a closing gap...sounds like a second or two later and you would have had a collision with the cones or lorry or both.

Don't worry, I'd rather have a collision with the cones rather than the lorry! I was fully prepared to knock down a few cones (should I say that knocking down cones was part of my driving plan? ), and don't worry, I've got a few tips on how to knock down cones from Grand Theft Auto
But as I say, I was only a short distance away from the lorry (a couple of metres at the most), and if I'd braked, I probably would've placed myself into a more serious conflict with the lorry, mainly because I'd have ended up in the driver's blind-spot, and I'm not confident the driver did see me approaching, as I was close to the lorry when he started to move out!

[trashbat]

It's a fair answer about the horn - some people's rule of thumb might be that if you have time to use it, you don't need to use it, although I think it has its place.

As for whether to accelerate or not, I don't know as I wasn't there, but sometimes the most pressing thing to do is choose a course of action and commit. Don't blindly persevere with a stupid plan of course, but you know what I mean. If you'd dithered or tried to abort your acceleration, things may have got even more confusing. Maybe it was good fortune or maybe it was good judgement but it seems like it worked out.

Have you thought about the view from a lorry cab? Also the timespan during which it was likely you would be seen.

[TheInsanity1234]

It's a fair answer about the horn - some people's rule of thumb might be that if you have time to use it, you don't need to use it, although I think it has its place.

Absolutely, its purpose is to make people notice your presence, but my first thought was to just get out of the way! Whether the horn would've worked or not, I don't know.
All I know is, I was pretty lucky that my judgement was right!

As for whether to accelerate or not, I don't know as I wasn't there, but sometimes the most pressing thing to do is choose a course of action and commit. Don't blindly persevere with a stupid plan of course, but you know what I mean. If you'd dithered or tried to abort your acceleration, things may have got even more confusing. Maybe it was good fortune or maybe it was good judgement but it seems like it worked out.

Indeed, I was already doing about 15 mph, so I thought the best course of action was to just floor it and get out of the way, as braking would've only served to place me right into the lorry driver's blind spot, and I wasn't sure if the driver noticed my presence, so better to get out of the way rather than brake and risk the driver going straight into me.

Have you thought about the view from a lorry cab? Also the timespan during which it was likely you would be seen.

The distance wasn't very far, which does make me wonder if I'd disappeared into the blind-spot shortly after I'd pulled out.

I've never been in the driver's seat of a lorry, but I do know that their blind-spots are massive, and since we were only in a Yeti, rather than another lorry.

Well, at least I've been able to look back and evaluate the situation, and pull out a lesson for the future, rather than just saying "I'm a brilliant driver and that lorry driver was just a to55er"!

[trashbat]

The police occasionally put on 'come and sit in a lorry cab' events for the benefit of cyclists. If there's ever one near you it might be worth a visit, even if you don't ride. These days the amount and quality of mirrors ought to have reduced the blind spots, but it's interesting to get a perspective. I haven't had the chance myself but I do have an appreciation of it.

[akirk]

I assume from your description that you were at a junction joining the main road within a set of lights, but your road was not light-controlled...

- knowing that junction I think that they should have light-controlled your junction as well - as others have said it is not an easy junction
- they are I believe meant to warn both ends of the lights when there is joining traffic which is not light controlled
- possibly once you are on the road it would be your right of way and the lorry should have stopped and allowed you through... regardless of lights
- lorries always win and therefore you always give way to them (they are bigger!)

as others have said, the only way of joining a light-controlled road when you are not is to first determine which side is moving, or due to move (i.e. you might have seen the other lane stop) and then depending on position / distance / etc. join in front as they come through, or behind as the last one goes before their light changes to red (be aware though that if the lights change fast you have added extra length to the queue and are the equivalent of the next car having gone through the red light - so it will be tight for you at the other end) - good learning point that you don't go until you know!

Were you in the wrong - not necessarily - were you in the right? probably not! But as pilots say - any landing you can walk away from is a good one

Alasdair

[TheInsanity1234]

I think that it's possible that during that particular set of roadworks, they had extended the time that both lights would be on red for, presumably to allow traffic joining some time to do so, as when I'd arrived, I was certainly not hurrying my decision, and there was no movement from traffic in either direction whatsoever!

This may have been what contributed to the near miss, as if the lights changed quickly, then the lorry would've been moving, and I would've waited until it passed before going, but it seems that I arrived right when both lights turned red, waited out the extra time period, then pulled out just as the lorry's light was turning amber!

Would be handy to introduce small repeaters behind the lights so you can see what setting they're on from behind as well as the main lights on the front...

[TripleS]

Resist the temptation to see yourself as a driving god each time you just cheat death....

Hey, that's a good idea: I must remember that one.

....and I didn't think your post was at all pompous. The pomposity can safely be left to others, mentioning no names....

Anyhow, I was very relieved to find that Mr1234 was successful in evading trouble, but it just goes to show how easily things can go from perfectly OK, to something quite different. Take care, each.

Best wishes all,
David.

[triquet]

I don't think that small repeaters would work. There are far too many people out there who would immediately jump the gun when it went red from the other direction.

Cynical? Moi?

[Gareth]

I looked left, saw a queue of maybe 3 cars waiting at the lights which were set just before the beginning of the turning lane, and I could see the lights in that direction were red (cars were stopped and showed no sign of setting off).

Could see, or could infer?

I then looked to my right, and saw a lorry waiting at the lights set just after the central marking section closed up. The lorry was not moving, and also showed no signs of setting off - bear in mind that I must've arrived at the precise moment that both sets of lights were showing red, as there were no cars passing in either direction, and there was no suggestion of movement in both directions.

Likewise. Sometimes you can see the reflected glow of the red traffic lights, other times not.

I then decided that I could go, as there was no sign of movement from either direction, and no suggestion that the lights were going to change.

How are you able to determine whether or not the lights were about to change? Seriously, how could you do this?

I would say it is clear you made an error of judgement, and here's why: when there is single-alternate traffic and both sides are stopped, it is because there is a delay before letting the alternate traffic through to allow for slow moving road users such as cyclists. The delay should be proportional to the distance, and set for the slowest moving road users, although maybe not long enough for them to clear the section but just so they can reach the point where the opposing road users can see they are still coming through.

As you stop at the junction it is impossible for you to determine which direction is about to move, nor how long it will be before they do. Because of this the only sane approach is to wait for one side or other to move, then proceed as has already been suggested.

[TheInsanity1234]

Could see, or could infer?
Likewise. Sometimes you can see the reflected glow of the red traffic lights, other times not.

I saw the reflection of a red glow off the traffic cones in front of the lights that weren't being washed out by the headlights of the cars waiting.

How are you able to determine whether or not the lights were about to change? Seriously, how could you do this?

The lorry however, was more of an guess, and the fact there were more cars stopped at the lights to my left made me think that that one had been red for a while, whereas the lorry was the only vehicle visible from my right.

I would say it is clear you made an error of judgement,

Did I say anything, anywhere, that implied that I thought I didn't make a mistake?
Because if I did, then I do apologise, but that wasn't intended, as I do think I made a mistake.

and here's why: when there is single-alternate traffic and both sides are stopped, it is because there is a delay before letting the alternate traffic through to allow for slow moving road users such as cyclists. The delay should be proportional to the distance, and set for the slowest moving road users, although maybe not long enough for them to clear the section but just so they can reach the point where the opposing road users can see they are still coming through.

The delay, however, was unnecessarily long. It was like 6 seconds, and the distance between lights was maybe 30 metres, which leads me to wonder if perhaps they'd put in an extra long delay for the purpose of allowing traffic to join, because I'd waited for quite a while before going.

As you stop at the junction it is impossible for you to determine which direction is about to move, nor how long it will be before they do. Because of this the only sane approach is to wait for one side or other to move, then proceed as has already been suggested.

Indeed, and I'm not sure why I took any other course of action, but there we go.
I'm lucky that I was able to recover from it, rather than ending up in a lump of metal in a hospital.