Clocking - What's the Problem?

[akirk]

Mileage is an important part of a car's history and any prudent buyer wants an accurate representation of this important figure (alongside other indicators like HPI check, MoT reports and service invoices etc). Provision of false information is fraud.

Is it fraud if a private buyer sells a car because they know it needs some really expensive repairs and, if they keep quiet, the potential purchaser may not notice?

No, but clocking is not the same.
- with clocking you are altering the odometer and therefore giving an inaccurate indication of miles travelled.
- a buyer needs to evaluate a car and the seller is not obliged to make it easy - but deception is of course illegal
- as the buyer is likely to use the odometer as one clue as to condition (and especially the need to change items on a manufacturer's schedule) clocking would be deliberately setting out to hinder that process / deceive...
- it is very different from not mentioning that the suspension is shot - the buyer's responsibility would be to check that

Alasdair

[Silk]

No, unless asked.

Ok.

[Silk]

Mileage is an important part of a car's history and any prudent buyer wants an accurate representation of this important figure (alongside other indicators like HPI check, MoT reports and service invoices etc). Provision of false information is fraud.

Is it fraud if a private buyer sells a car because they know it needs some really expensive repairs and, if they keep quiet, the potential purchaser may not notice?

No, but clocking is not the same.
- with clocking you are altering the odometer and therefore giving an inaccurate indication of miles travelled.
- a buyer needs to evaluate a car and the seller is not obliged to make it easy - but deception is of course illegal
- as the buyer is likely to use the odometer as one clue as to condition (and especially the need to change items on a manufacturer's schedule) clocking would be deliberately setting out to hinder that process / deceive...
- it is very different from not mentioning that the suspension is shot - the buyer's responsibility would be to check that

A lie is a lie and dishonest is dishonest. If a buyer believes he's getting a car in good order and you know it's not, you have to tell them. Otherwise, you're going to burn in HELL!

[akirk]

A lie is a lie and dishonest is dishonest. If a buyer believes he's getting a car in good order and you know it's not, you have to tell them. Otherwise, you're going to burn in HELL!

well of course - if they ask you the condition / any issues / specifics...
but your question was in keeping quiet - and while undoubtedly not ehtical / morally good, it is not technically illegal - clocking, however many different ways you try to pose the question is fraudulent / illegal, it is really rather black and white

Alasdair

[Silk]

A lie is a lie and dishonest is dishonest. If a buyer believes he's getting a car in good order and you know it's not, you have to tell them. Otherwise, you're going to burn in HELL!

well of course - if they ask you the condition / any issues / specifics...
but your question was in keeping quiet - and while undoubtedly not ehtical / morally good, it is not technically illegal - clocking, however many different ways you try to pose the question is fraudulent / illegal, it is really rather black and white

Is this better/worse/about the same as selling a car with high mileage to a dealer when you know there's a good chance it may to be "clocked" before being sold on?

[jont]

A lie is a lie and dishonest is dishonest. If a buyer believes he's getting a car in good order and you know it's not, you have to tell them. Otherwise, you're going to burn in HELL!

well of course - if they ask you the condition / any issues / specifics...
but your question was in keeping quiet - and while undoubtedly not ehtical / morally good, it is not technically illegal - clocking, however many different ways you try to pose the question is fraudulent / illegal, it is really rather black and white

Is this better/worse/about the same as selling a car with high mileage to a dealer when you know there's a good chance it may to be "clocked" before being sold on?

Just get it MOT'd before you flog it. Then will flag up in the future if it is clocked.

[Silk]

Is this better/worse/about the same as selling a car with high mileage to a dealer when you know there's a good chance it may to be "clocked" before being sold on?

Just get it MOT'd before you flog it. Then will flag up in the future if it is clocked.

Yebbut, then I won't get as much for it.

[jont]

Is this better/worse/about the same as selling a car with high mileage to a dealer when you know there's a good chance it may to be "clocked" before being sold on?

Just get it MOT'd before you flog it. Then will flag up in the future if it is clocked.

Yebbut, then I won't get as much for it.

Agree a price, then get it MOTd before you hand it over. They won't know until they're stuck with it

[Silk]

Agree a price, then get it MOTd before you hand it over. They won't know until they're stuck with it

Why would I want to go and do a thing like that? I'll have to pay for the MOT, and there's a chance it could fail.

There's a space on the V5 to put the mileage in if you're so inclined. It's not compulsory and I'm not sure what happens to the data, but it may help if you suffer from hyper-conscience.

All part of the risk in buying a used car. That's why they're a bit cheaper.

[TheInsanity1234]

I have to admit, I'd go for a car which had twice the mileage, and yet was the same age and condition as another car, just because higher mileage in a shorter time period suggests a lot of motorway work, which is the best kind of work for a car, as it does 90% of the journey with the engine at operating temperature, whereas a ultra-low mileage car for its age suggests it was owned by a 'Doris' and she used it to travel 3 miles to Sainsbury's to purchase more kitty litter, which means the engine barely gets to operating temperature before it's turned off.

[Silk]

I have to admit, I'd go for a car which had twice the mileage, and yet was the same age and condition as another car, just because higher mileage in a shorter time period suggests a lot of motorway work, which is the best kind of work for a car, as it does 90% of the journey with the engine at operating temperature, whereas a ultra-low mileage car for its age suggests it was owned by a 'Doris' and she used it to travel 3 miles to Sainsbury's to purchase more kitty litter, which means the engine barely gets to operating temperature before it's turned off.

Exactly. If you think about it, if I have a car for 3 years, it will have around 150,000 miles on the clock when I go to trade it in. In that time it will have been serviced at least 7 times and had all the consumables changed as necessary including the oil. It will probably have had all the brake discs and various rubber bits including the cambelt changed . An average mileage 3 year old car will have had just the one minor service in that time. As not everything is mileage dependant there will no doubt be parts on the low mileage car that need changing and will have to wait for the first major service at 4 years. Clock the 150,000 miler back to 30,000 and you'll have a car that's been better maintained and will probably last longer than the one with genuine mileage of the same age. Because cambelt changes are time as well as mileage dependent, both the cars will probably be due their next change at a similar time.

The mileage thing is out of date and the car buying public needs educating. Of course, it's not in the interests of the motor trade to do this as they rely on people's fears that when their car gets to a certain mileage, they have to get a new one. Clockers are providing a necessary service by creating a market for quality cars that would otherwise get overlooked because of a number.

[Horse]

Six oagescon, you still haven't got it

Edit: six BloodyTabletKeyboard pages

[Silk]

Six pages on, you still haven't got it

I'll give you a chance to edit before refreshing the page.

[akirk]

Clock the 150,000 miler back to 30,000 and you'll have a car that's been better maintained and will probably last longer than the one with genuine mileage of the same age.
... ...
Clockers are providing a necessary service by creating a market for quality cars that would otherwise get overlooked because of a number.

Do you really believe this, or do you just get your kicks from posting rubbish online?!

If a car at 150,000 miles (well looked after) is in your view the same as a car of 30,000 miles, would that 150k car not have been in even better condition at 30k?! Your logic is flawed.

There is no way that with two cars both looked after identically one at 150,000 will ever be the same or better than one at 30,000 - there will always be elements that are more worn - the brake pads might have been replaced, but the carpets / the seats / the headliner, the chassis, the engine, etc. etc. etc. will all be worse...

Clockers are only providing one thing - more profit for themselves at the cost of someone else = fraud = crime.

Alasdair

[Silk]

Clock the 150,000 miler back to 30,000 and you'll have a car that's been better maintained and will probably last longer than the one with genuine mileage of the same age.
... ...
Clockers are providing a necessary service by creating a market for quality cars that would otherwise get overlooked because of a number.

Do you really believe this, or do you just get your kicks from posting rubbish online?!

I like to look at things from a different point of view now and again. If you prefer to believe everything you read without question, perhaps this thread isn't for you.

If a car at 150,000 miles (well looked after) is in your view the same as a car of 30,000 miles, would that 150k car not have been in even better condition at 30k?! Your logic is flawed.

No, YOUR logic is flawed. At 30K the car was less than 9 months old.

There is no way that with two cars both looked after identically one at 150,000 will ever be the same or better than one at 30,000 - there will always be elements that are more worn - the brake pads might have been replaced, but the carpets / the seats / the headliner, the chassis, the engine, etc. etc. etc. will all be worse...

I've already pointed out that the consumables would have been replaced during routing servicing. With regards to the general condition of the car. Anyone, including some on this forum who have seen for themselves, will testify that my cars are always in practically mint condition, regardless of mileage. On the other hand, I know of cars that have only covered average mileage that look like the inside of a skip. So, yes, there's every possibility that my high-milers are in better condition in *every* respect than an equivalent low-miler that's been treated badly.

Clockers are only providing one thing - more profit for themselves at the cost of someone else = fraud = crime.

Yeah, we know all that. You could apply the same logic to anything that's done to a car to increase its perceived value. You could also argue that the buyer should decide for themselves - the problem with that is the trade deliberately hides high mileage cars from the retail side, so potential buyers rarely get the opportunity to do this. Most of these cars either end up as taxis or clocked. The trade doesn't want you to know how reliable modern cars are. They would rather you traded them in as soon as possible. If you want to look for fraud and dodgy dealings in the motor trade, you need to look a lot further than just clocking.