Clocking - What's the Problem?

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Postby Silk » Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:57 pm


There was an article in the IAM rag a few issues ago about this - the writer was getting very hot under the collar about it - making out that "clockers" are evil people, right up there with murderers and rapists. Quite unnecessary, IMO. In fact, I would go so far as to say that "clockers" are probably providing a public service and should be praised.

I remember years ago, you were looking at an engine rebuild when a car went "round the clock". These days, you wouldn't notice. Other problems are much more likely to see a car in the scrapyard long before the engine gives up.

I've just got rid of my last car - just over two years old and 120,000 miles on the clock. To look at it, you wouldn't know it had done more than 10,000. If someone "clocks" it and sells it on, does it really matter, if the owner is unlikely to notice?

In fact, I think I'd rather have a "clocked" car that was well looked after than one that had spent all it's life in stop start traffic in London with only 20,000 genuine miles on the clock.

I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to come up with a new way of measuring a car's state of wear other than just a number.
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Postby devonutopia » Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:11 pm


Its only fine when documentation is kept showing original and changed mileage. Then a car can be sold without fraud with the actual mileage able to be checked. :)
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Postby akirk » Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:22 pm


I think there are some mixed bits to pull out of that...
- Agree, mileage is no longer as accurate an indication of condition as it maybe once was, and it would probably be beneficial to the market generally if people were less hung up on number of miles... however it is of benefit to those who are happy to take the nice price drop over 100,000 miles and pick up nice cars cheaper...
- clocking though is simply fraud - pretending that a car is different to reality - and I can't see where that could ever be accepted

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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:20 pm


Fraud plain and simple, and fairly easily discovered these days with online MOTs (unless the vehicle is under 3 years old, but high mileage newish cars tend to be company or hire, so records will be available from elsewhere).

Sorry, but clockers are criminals, and should be stamped out, just like people who manufacture and sell fake clothes, and other such pastimes.
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Postby Silk » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:28 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Sorry, but clockers are criminals, and should be stamped out, just like people who manufacture and sell fake clothes, and other such pastimes.


Don't be ridiculous. Apart from the fact that "clocking" isn't a criminal offence, there are much more important things to worry about.

Simply taking into account how many times the gearbox output shaft has turned during the life of a car and ignoring pretty much anything else is, IMO, an outdated and inaccurate method of establishing a vehicle's mechanical condition. It's "how" it's been driven not "how far".

A car that's been driven in stop/start traffic and on frequent short journeys is likely to be knackered than one that's been driven further with more mechanical sympathy.
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Postby exportmanuk » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:41 pm


Silk wrote:
Don't be ridiculous. Apart from the fact that "clocking" isn't a criminal offence, there are much more important things to worry about.

Simply taking into account how many times the gearbox output shaft has turned during the life of a car and ignoring pretty much anything else is, IMO, an outdated and inaccurate method of establishing a vehicle's mechanical condition. It's "how" it's been driven not "how far".

A car that's been driven in stop/start traffic and on frequent short journeys is likely to be knackered than one that's been driven further with more mechanical sympathy.


Whist I dont disagree with your analysis of the mechanical state of the car. If the "clockers " did not gain financially from altering the mileage then why would they do it.

If someone sold you a car as a 2 litre and you found out later it was only a 1.6 I think you would be upset. I don't see clocking as any different it is a deliberate misrepresentation of the vehicle for a quick financial gain.
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Postby Silk » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:50 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:(unless the vehicle is under 3 years old, but high mileage newish cars tend to be company or hire, so records will be available from elsewhere).


Not necessarily the case these days as more and more high mileage cars are privately owned and "expensed". I buy all my cars myself and get an allowance and mileage rate. The only way a subsequent owner would know if a car that I sold on was "clocked" was if they were to get hold of the dealer service record (even then, you don't necessarily have to have the car serviced at a main dealer, so it's fairly easy to "lose" the service history and create a new one - even if you have it serviced at a main dealer, there are data protection laws that prevent future owners from getting hold of servicing records). Although I'm not directly involved myself, I'm aware that there's a market out there for cars like mine that wouldn't necessarily exist if "clocking" were to become an offence. That's one reason why I'm not in support of such a law. :wink:
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Postby trashbat » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:53 pm


Presumably you wouldn't want to buy a car that had done 120,000 miles instead of the 10,000 that was claimed? So it's just that it's fine if some other sap gets lumbered with it?

Weird thread, to be honest. Clocking already is an offence.
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Postby Silk » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:04 pm


exportmanuk wrote: Whilst I dont disagree with your analysis of the mechanical state of the car. If the "clockers " did not gain financially from altering the mileage then why would they do it.

If someone sold you a car as a 2 litre and you found out later it was only a 1.6 I think you would be upset. I don't see clocking as any different it is a deliberate misrepresentation of the vehicle for a quick financial gain.


You could argue that people do it to avoid a car being unfairly judged on mileage alone.

Of course I would expect a car to be as described, but we're not talking about a completely different car here. The car may have covered 100,000 miles but be in similar or better mechanical condition than one that has covered only 20,000 miles. I see no harm in a bit of "adjustment" if the car is identical mechanically to one that hasn't been driven as far.

Put it another way: why, when I've taken good care of my car, why should I be penalised at resale just because I've driven it further? If you sell a TV, no one asks you how often you watched it, the decision to buy is based purely on the condition at the time. Why shouldn't this be the case with a car?
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Postby Silk » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:09 pm


trashbat wrote:Presumably you wouldn't want to buy a car that had done 120,000 miles instead of the 10,000 that was claimed? So it's just that it's fine if some other sap gets lumbered with it?


I would want to know more about the car. If the 120K miler was in otherwise better nick than the 10K miler, then I wouldn't be that bothered.

trashbat wrote:Weird thread, to be honest. Clocking already is an offence.


Clocking isn't an offence. Although there are some who want to make it so. I say they're misguided and haven't considered the bigger picture.
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Postby dvenman » Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:55 am


I found out recently my Golf had been clocked. Odd chassis numbers on MOT certificates which I should have picked up when I looked at the car, but more tellingly different mileages on the MOT done in March.

It means that for me, I can't trust what mileage the car has done since it allegedly had its ca belt done. So £450 to change the belts and water pump.

Clocking per se might not be a criminal offence, but the car would have been worth less when I bought it with its true mileage. So fraud it is, which is, the last time I looked, a criminal offence.
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Postby trashbat » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:02 am


It'd be difficult to make the physical process of clocking itself illegal, as sometimes recorded mileage change comes about by replacing components like the speedometer or the ECU.

However, misrepresentation of the mileage is, as the last poster points out, fraud. Why you would apparently be happy to be the victim of fraud is puzzling.
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Postby jont » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:26 am


Silk wrote:I've just got rid of my last car - just over two years old and 120,000 miles on the clock. To look at it, you wouldn't know it had done more than 10,000. If someone "clocks" it and sells it on, does it really matter, if the owner is unlikely to notice?

How do you feel about garages servicing your car? Do you care if they don't actually do an oil change, but just stamp the book? Afterall, everyone "knows" modern synthetic oil doesn't really need changing that often.
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Postby Silk » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:52 am


jont wrote:
Silk wrote:I've just got rid of my last car - just over two years old and 120,000 miles on the clock. To look at it, you wouldn't know it had done more than 10,000. If someone "clocks" it and sells it on, does it really matter, if the owner is unlikely to notice?

How do you feel about garages servicing your car? Do you care if they don't actually do an oil change, but just stamp the book? Afterall, everyone "knows" modern synthetic oil doesn't really need changing that often.


That's partly my point. There are so many things you can't possibly know about a used car. Relying on mileage alone is a bit like relying on speed limits as the only way to improve road safety.

If you make it impossible to alter true mileage, then buyers end up depending on that alone. Cars that are in otherwise excellent condition get overlooked.

In a world of illegal clocking, anything that isn't taxi fodder would become virtually worthless.

Far better to come up with new ways of determining a car's state of wear and educating the buying public that high mileage isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just one of many things to consider. If you could find a way of establishing a car's true condition, then there would be benefits all round. As things stand, the way you look after a car matters very little at trade in time - it should.
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Postby Silk » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:58 am


dvenman wrote:I found out recently my Golf had been clocked. Odd chassis numbers on MOT certificates which I should have picked up when I looked at the car, but more tellingly different mileages on the MOT done in March.

It means that for me, I can't trust what mileage the car has done since it allegedly had its ca belt done. So £450 to change the belts and water pump.

Clocking per se might not be a criminal offence, but the car would have been worth less when I bought it with its true mileage. So fraud it is, which is, the last time I looked, a criminal offence.


If you'd never found out, I'm assuming you'd be none the wiser. Are you otherwise happy with the car?
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