Clocking - What's the Problem?

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Postby Silk » Sun May 17, 2015 5:07 pm


Garrison wrote:Late to this party but here is my thought.

Mileage is one but not the only one measure to assess vehicle condition, and therefore its value. There are other factors, such as operating hours, operating environment, market dynamics, etc.


If you were to put a 3 year old car that had done 150,000 miles up against a 15 year old car that had done the same, it would be immediately obvious that age has a far greater impact than miles driven.

Garrison wrote:To most layman, mileage is the easiest definition to understand and to assess. I therefore think that clocking is unacceptable given majority of buyers and sellers place such overly reliance on this single measurement.


Dishonesty is never a good thing. But I'm sure you'll agree there are little white lies and great big porkies, with most somewhere in between. Of all the dishonesty in the motor trade, I certainly wouldn't put clocking at the top. Bodged and hidden accident repairs, repairs charged for but not done and unnecessary repairs are much higher up on the list, IMO. And just because we're no longer talking about "ringing" and "cut-and-shut", doesn't mean it's no longer happening. Then there's outstanding finance that's not declared. The list goes on.
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Postby Silk » Sun May 17, 2015 8:51 pm


akirk wrote:
Silk wrote:I've never suggested that clocking is anything other than dishonest, just the degree to which it matters and even the unexpected benefits. I'm surprised that some have taken the moral high-ground on this one, as if they've never done anything wrong in their lives.


really?! ;)
try re-reading the thread, and perhaps start with the title you gave it...


1) You're not thinking it through.

2) You're taking it far too seriously.
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Postby Garrison » Sun May 17, 2015 9:53 pm


Silk wrote:If you were to put a 3 year old car that had done 150,000 miles up against a 15 year old car that had done the same, it would be immediately obvious that age has a far greater impact than miles driven.

Sorry, I might have been misunderstood. Are you referring to operating hours or time since manufacturing? I thought operating hours and environment of operation would have a bigger impact than age since manufacturing.
Silk wrote:Dishonesty is never a good thing. But I'm sure you'll agree there are little white lies and great big porkies, with most somewhere in between. Of all the dishonesty in the motor trade, I certainly wouldn't put clocking at the top. Bodged and hidden accident repairs, repairs charged for but not done and unnecessary repairs are much higher up on the list, IMO. And just because we're no longer talking about "ringing" and "cut-and-shut", doesn't mean it's no longer happening. Then there's outstanding finance that's not declared. The list goes on.

Again, I might have been misunderstood. Are you talking about dangerously or ill-prepared vehicles on the road? Or the ethical issue? Or the financial valuation?
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Postby akirk » Mon May 18, 2015 9:25 am


Silk wrote:
akirk wrote:
Silk wrote:I've never suggested that clocking is anything other than dishonest, just the degree to which it matters and even the unexpected benefits. I'm surprised that some have taken the moral high-ground on this one, as if they've never done anything wrong in their lives.


really?! ;)
try re-reading the thread, and perhaps start with the title you gave it...


1) You're not thinking it through.

2) You're taking it far too seriously.


1) I am - it is clear to everyone other than you ;)

2) I am not - anyone condoning fraud and illegal actions should be taken seriously - more so on a forum devoted to AD where legality is one of the underlying themes of discussion - it is this insiduous slide from a clear understanding of morality / ethics / legality through a process of 'it is okay / it is minor / it doesn't hurt anyone / I don't want to take on responsibility / I just want to be greedy' that has been at the core of changing our society gradually over the last few years, it is not a good thing and it should be stamped out...

If you are the owner of a car of high mileage then you take the pain in the loss of value - to believe that someone else should be conned so that you can make more money is irreprehensible and morally unacceptable - at no point have you suggested that you are joking / making a point - there is a clear ethical framework being displayed here which is not acceptable in our country and therefore it is important that it is taken seriously...

this 'me me me' society is not a good thing...

and if you still don't get it after so long a thread - perhaps you need to re-read it and look at what you have said / argued for - it is clear to everyone else!

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Postby Silk » Mon May 18, 2015 11:46 am


Garrison wrote:
Silk wrote:If you were to put a 3 year old car that had done 150,000 miles up against a 15 year old car that had done the same, it would be immediately obvious that age has a far greater impact than miles driven.

Sorry, I might have been misunderstood. Are you referring to operating hours or time since manufacturing? I thought operating hours and environment of operation would have a bigger impact than age since manufacturing.


Ok, let's look at all the factors that take a car from factory fresh to scrapyard ready: -

1) Environmental - this is damage that occurs to a car by being exposed to the elements regardless of whether or not it's driven.
2) Operating hours - time that the car being driven regardless of distance travelled.
3) Mechanical sympathy - how badly the car is treated.
4) Maintenance.
5) Distance covered.

When you come to sell a car, apart from a brief cosmetic inspection and a quick drive around the block to make sure there's nothing too obvious wrong, mileage is the number one factor when it come to determining the value of the car at trade-in.

If a car has covered 150,000 miles in just 3 years, it's likely to had similar of 1), more but not proportionally more of 2), Better, due to being driven on more open roads per mile driven, of 3) and a lot more of 4).

It's almost certain that a 3 year old car that has covered 5 times average mileage has nowhere near the amount of wear as a car that has done the same mileage but it 15 years old - mainly due to how it's been driven, maintenance (I doubt most people keep up-to-date with servicing after the first 5 or so years or bother to top up with the correct oil if they check it at all) and exposure to the environment. I'm sure you'd also agree that it's also possible for a high mileage car to have less wear than a low mileage car of a similar age. If the high mileage car was clocked back to 30,000 miles, then it's also highly likely that it would be virtually indistinguishable from a car with 30,000 genuine miles, even if it were stripped down and inspected more thoroughly.

Garrison wrote:
Silk wrote:Dishonesty is never a good thing. But I'm sure you'll agree there are little white lies and great big porkies, with most somewhere in between. Of all the dishonesty in the motor trade, I certainly wouldn't put clocking at the top. Bodged and hidden accident repairs, repairs charged for but not done and unnecessary repairs are much higher up on the list, IMO. And just because we're no longer talking about "ringing" and "cut-and-shut", doesn't mean it's no longer happening. Then there's outstanding finance that's not declared. The list goes on.

Again, I might have been misunderstood. Are you talking about dangerously or ill-prepared vehicles on the road? Or the ethical issue? Or the financial valuation?


I'm really talking about excessive demonization of clocking to the exclusion of other more important things. Stealing a loaf of bread is wrong, but it's not murder.
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Postby dvenman » Mon May 18, 2015 1:21 pm


You're older than you seem then, Dave :)
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Postby Garrison » Mon May 18, 2015 6:39 pm


Silk wrote:If the high mileage car was clocked back to 30,000 miles, then it's also highly likely that it would be virtually indistinguishable from a car with 30,000 genuine miles, even if it were stripped down and inspected more thoroughly.

Great point and you highlighted the importance of doing proper due diligence, including but not limited to mechanical DD, financial DD, legal DD, etc.

I'm with you as I have always sought to buy second hand and look for value by combining a low transaction price (I.e. High mileage) with high quality (I.e. Almost perfect having subjected to all the due diligence processes) cars. I think part of doing due diligence is that I have someone to sue if things go wrong (I.e. I am buying insurance policies against mechanical, financial, legal risks.

There is nothing to stop you to bid on a clocked car so long as you are happy with the value. I have bought a written off 5 years old Scorpio Cosworth with 80k on the clock for £2,000 in university because I feel the value is appropriate. The car ran till 160k until I decided to let it go.

Advertised price is only a number used to massage the seller's ego. Transaction price only indicates willing buyer and willing seller. Value is the gain you get from all the hard work / analysis in doing the right deal.
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Postby revian » Mon May 18, 2015 9:39 pm


Silk wrote:Dishonesty is never a good thing. But.....

"But".... This is where we part company... But nothing.

Silk wrote:I'm really talking about excessive demonization of clocking to the exclusion of other more important things. Stealing a loaf of bread is wrong, but it's not murder.


There are some issues where the lesser of two evils must be the choice. Here's my 'but'... in a plain, simple and uncomplicated case they are still both wrong.

You seem to be at extreme pains to excuse clocking as 'not really so bad'. It is a deceit End of. Sorry but that's the end of my contribution. Life's too important for this pointlessness.

still...kind regards... Ian
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Postby Garrison » Mon May 18, 2015 10:13 pm


Silk - Please just answer "yes" or "no".

- would you buy an undeclared written off car?
- would you buy an undeclared clocked car?

I bought a car (my Scorpio Cosworth) which was undeclared written off in the advertisement.
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Postby Silk » Wed May 20, 2015 11:19 am


Garrison wrote:Silk - Please just answer "yes" or "no".

- would you buy an undeclared written off car?
- would you buy an undeclared clocked car?

I bought a car (my Scorpio Cosworth) which was undeclared written off in the advertisement.


I wouldn't want a car that had been in an accident. Apart from the danger of it being unsafe, drivers who write off cars are likely to be poor drivers and the car will probably be knackered in other respects.

I only buy new as I need to for work. But I would have no problem buying a high-mileage used car from an auction over a low-mileage one from a dealership. The problem is, I'm in the minority, so I'll be bidding against clockers. The "clocked" cars will then surface on low-rent forecourts with "low mileage" stickers on the windscreen, or in ads placed by dealers posing as private sellers. They're simply responding to supply and demand. Good quality low-mileage used cars are in short supply and high-mileage quality used cars are plentiful.

If people weren't so hung up on mileage and the main dealerships didn't try to pretend high-mileage cars didn't exist, then clocking would eventually die out.
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Postby akirk » Wed May 20, 2015 12:11 pm


Silk wrote:If people weren't so hung up on mileage and the main dealerships didn't try to pretend high-mileage cars didn't exist, then clocking would eventually die out.


Not really the point though... - any gap which can be exploited illegally for personal gain will find some criminal willing to take advantage

whether it is milege or something else is irrelevant - it is simply that some people are hapy to commit fraud to make money

it is useful for a purchaser to have a way of indicating the life of a vehicle - granted mileage is simplistic and as you have accurately commented, not always the best indicator, but in the absence of any other it is all we have - a service record may tell us more, but is itself not accurate - someone self-servicing their car may do the work to a higher level than a local garage, yet without the paperwork it might appear less cared for, unless you had a fully intelligent car which can use autonomous means to report on wear and tear / replaement parts etc, then mileage is the best we have - and therefore it is important that we maintain the integrity of this system

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Postby Silk » Thu May 21, 2015 4:27 pm


akirk wrote:
Silk wrote:If people weren't so hung up on mileage and the main dealerships didn't try to pretend high-mileage cars didn't exist, then clocking would eventually die out.


Not really the point though... - any gap which can be exploited illegally for personal gain will find some criminal willing to take advantage


I'm surprised some people are taking all this so seriously. All I'm doing is looking at something from a different point of view. Sometimes it's good to have a bit of a play around with a subject to see where it goes.

It would be nice if we could all live in a bubble of purity, isolated from all the nasty people who live it that part of town we drive around on the way to visiting nice people like us to discuss how law abiding we all are, unlike those nasty people over there. The fact is, crime is an integral part of the economy. The bad parts are obvious, but we can't ignore the fact that it can have unintended benefits. Having a market for goods that would be harder to sell otherwise is only a small part. The Police and the Security Industry simply wouldn't exist if we all behaved ourselves. We live in a very imperfect world and we have to work with what we have.

So what if the car I sell ends up on a dodgy garage forecourt after getting a "haircut"?
Last edited by Silk on Thu May 21, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Garrison » Thu May 21, 2015 5:56 pm


Silk wrote:
Garrison wrote:Silk - Please just answer "yes" or "no".

- would you buy an undeclared written off car?
- would you buy an undeclared clocked car?

I bought a car (my Scorpio Cosworth) which was undeclared written off in the advertisement.


I wouldn't want a car that had been in an accident.

I only buy new as I need to for work. But I would have no problem buying a high-mileage used car from an auction over a low-mileage one from a dealership.

Hey Silk.

OK, so you said you would not buy an undeclared written off car.

But you have not mentioned whether you would buy an undeclared clocked car. So would you buy an undeclared clocked car?



p.s. FYI, not all new cars are "new" from the mileage prospective, though unlikely to occur in the UK.

When I worked at Ford's car electrical and electronics designs in early 2000s, we had a manufacturer instruction that a STAR machine can "clock" a Mercedes new car back on the cluster and also on the ECU, though only once. Of course, the instrument cluster can also be clocked further times through clocking or changing of the cluster. I cannot remember exactly the threshold of the official clocking but it is a few thousand miles. We know Mercedes had this feature included in the OS and on the STAR machine such that new cars can appears "new" on the clock when delivered to new customers.

I have no problem with this ethically from a car designer or shareholder prospective but I can understand other stakeholders may have different views ...
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Postby Horse » Thu May 21, 2015 6:11 pm


Silk wrote: I'm surprised some people are taking all this so seriously. All I'm doing is looking at something from a different point of view. Sometimes it's good to have a bit of a play around with a subject to see where it goes.

It would be nice if we could all live in a bubble of purity . . . discuss how law abiding we all are


After all, none of us ever break speed limits, do we? We respect all laws.
Anything posted by 'Horse' may be (C) Malcolm Palmer. Please ask for permission before considering any copying or re-use outside of forum posting.
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Postby MGF » Thu May 21, 2015 7:56 pm


Silk wrote:
MGF wrote:The demand by thieves is likely to be related to the margins achieved. As prices increase, thieves lose interest. Demand falls.


What are you on about now? What have thieves got to do with it?

People who clock cars before resale can quite properly be described as thieves. You suggest this demand increases the value of high mileage cars to the extent that this can be exploited by the seller. I doubt there is much difference in the value of high mileage cars whether the demand is from thieves or from buyers who would be priced out of the low mileage market as supply decreased in the absence of clocking.
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