Clocking - What's the Problem?

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Postby MGF » Wed May 13, 2015 1:19 pm


Silk wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:Unless you're suggesting that the high-mileage cars are more valuable because a lot of people buy them to make a profit by clocking them?


That's exactly what I'm suggesting. That's because it's true.


You're asserting it is true. You're suggesting it is significant.

Silk wrote:.,,You're making the mistake of assuming that "market value" is somehow set in stone. It's not. What you get for a used car is determined by supply and demand.


The demand by thieves is likely to be related to the margins achieved. As prices increase, thieves lose interest. Demand falls.
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Postby Silk » Wed May 13, 2015 8:19 pm


MGF wrote:The demand by thieves is likely to be related to the margins achieved. As prices increase, thieves lose interest. Demand falls.


What are you on about now? What have thieves got to do with it?
Last edited by Silk on Wed May 13, 2015 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Silk » Wed May 13, 2015 8:48 pm


chriskay wrote:
Silk wrote:Perhaps you shouldn't. It would be a stupid question.


I think you should answer: the question seems quite appropriate.


It's a "straw man".
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Postby Silk » Thu May 14, 2015 9:08 am


chriskay wrote:
Silk wrote:
It's a "straw man".


That's an easy get-out.


What does "clocking" have to do with aircraft safety?
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Postby Silk » Thu May 14, 2015 12:11 pm


StressedDave wrote:about as much as your argument has with either morality or reality.



I've given you the reality. I'm not sure where morality comes into it. It's of no concern to me where my old cars end up. If criminality means I get a better price, then why should I be bothered? Perhaps I should include as a condition of sale that my old car is not allowed to be used for criminality for its entire life from the moment it leaves my possession to the moment it goes in the crusher with paperwork to prove it. Perhaps I should go one stage further and insist that the scrap metal only be used to make gardening implements, or some such.
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Postby Horse » Thu May 14, 2015 12:51 pm


Silk wrote: Perhaps I should go one stage further and insist that the scrap metal only be used to make . . .


. . . passenger-carrying aeroplanes? ???
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Postby Silk » Thu May 14, 2015 1:34 pm


Horse wrote:
Silk wrote: Perhaps I should go one stage further and insist that the scrap metal only be used to make . . .


. . . passenger-carrying aeroplanes? ???


Nice idea, but aren't aeroplanes made from aluminium these days?

Having said that, some of the body panels on my Peugeot are aluminium. Although if it's as good as their steel, it may not be a good idea to use it in aeroplanes. :wink:
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Postby triquet » Thu May 14, 2015 1:55 pm


This thread has too many posts and is depreciating rapidly. I think I'll wind it back about 80, and claim that the cambelt has been renewed .... :mrgreen:
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Postby Silk » Thu May 14, 2015 4:10 pm


triquet wrote:This thread has too many posts and is depreciating rapidly. I think I'll wind it back about 80, and claim that the cambelt has been renewed .... :mrgreen:


Nah, plenty of mileage in it yet. :wink:

On the subject of cambelts, there's every chance a high-mileage car will have had it changed more recently than a low-mileage car. Age and how the car has been driven will also have an effect on cambelt life. If in doubt, budget for a replacement when you buy a used car from somewhere other than a main dealer - the chances are you'll have saved enough on the screen price to allow for it and more besides.

If you've bought a car with 30,000 miles on the clock, it's really done 150,000 and it hasn't given you any trouble, what's the problem? Apart from being pissed at being lied to.

What I'd like someone to tell me is where they think all these high-mileage cars end up, if what I've been saying isn't true and clockers have no effect on demand. Of course, some of them will end up as taxis, but that's going to be relatively few.
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Postby pete g » Fri May 15, 2015 2:09 pm


Give us a break Steve...

Take it from an engineer... its not only Eng items belts etc, a 150k car is just about worn out in all respects.
The front will be gravel rash with FOD
The suspension will be loose and soggy, the seats will have been sat in and god knows what else done in them 5 times more than a 30k car. The gearbox/diff/bearings and bushes will be hanging...
It been exposed to 5 times amount of salt and shite...

Funny you have just swaped high miler for new duh ... Even if it is a poxy oil burning pug ;-)

Clocking is dis-honest makes money for villans... you should know better than talk such rubbish..
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Postby revian » Fri May 15, 2015 7:00 pm


Genuinely... I just can't work out how clocking is anything more or less than lying. Because some good MAY come out of it isn't a logical justification for changing that view . IMHO of course. '

'Yes, I know I murdered your father but think how much life insurance you benefitted from'.

It's no more acceptable than 'pay cash and there's no VAT to pay'. Some one tried it that on me today and I'm just wondering whether to report the thief that he is'.
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Postby Silk » Fri May 15, 2015 7:30 pm


revian wrote:Genuinely... I just can't work out how clocking is anything more or less than lying. Because some good MAY come out of it isn't a logical justification for changing that view . IMHO of course. '


The thing is, it's very difficult to have any contact with the motor trade without either lying or being lied to. Everyone does it. When people sell a car, they may "forget" to mention all the faults, even if they're the reason they're selling it in the first place. When a dealer inflates the price of a new car in order to make it look like you're getting a good deal on a part-exchange, they're being dishonest, but no one is suggesting they be criminalised - in some ways this is a good thing as those in the know get their cars subsidised by those who are not. Caveat emptor, and all that.

I've never suggested that clocking is anything other than dishonest, just the degree to which it matters and even the unexpected benefits. I'm surprised that some have taken the moral high-ground on this one, as if they've never done anything wrong in their lives.
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Postby Silk » Fri May 15, 2015 8:00 pm


pete g wrote:Give us a break Steve...

Take it from an engineer... its not only Eng items belts etc, a 150k car is just about worn out in all respects.
The front will be gravel rash with FOD
The suspension will be loose and soggy, the seats will have been sat in and god knows what else done in them 5 times more than a 30k car. The gearbox/diff/bearings and bushes will be hanging...
It been exposed to 5 times amount of salt and shite...

Funny you have just swaped high miler for new duh ... Even if it is a poxy oil burning pug ;-)

Clocking is dis-honest makes money for villans... you should know better than talk such rubbish..


Pete,

Nice of you to join us. You know I value your opinion on many things, but you've seen my cars. You've even been driven in my A3 at over 120,000 miles - did that look "hanging" to you?

One of the reasons I got rid was because I wanted something a bit cheaper to run. Oh, and because I'd paid enough to VT it without having to worry about excess mileage, but that's another story.:wink: When you have to run a car for work and don't want to pay too much, you do what you need to do - as long as it's legal. If there are villains involved further down the line, that's their lookout.
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Postby akirk » Sat May 16, 2015 8:17 am


Silk wrote:I've never suggested that clocking is anything other than dishonest, just the degree to which it matters and even the unexpected benefits. I'm surprised that some have taken the moral high-ground on this one, as if they've never done anything wrong in their lives.


really?! ;)
try re-reading the thread, and perhaps start with the title you gave it...

the fact that you have kept it going with spurious logic despite everyone else disagreeing with you and making it very clear that clocking is criminal...

you seem to continue to think that there is no issue...

and honesty / dishonesty is by definition black and white not grey... there is no such thing as a degree of dishonesty - there might be degrees of consequence / implication - but something is either dishonest or not.

and clocking is dishonest & illegal, therefore fraudulent and criminal.

I have bought perhaps 10 cars from dealers over the years - never had an issue with dishonesty - in all cases we have had very open discussions about the condition of the car / what has been done, what hasn't, and I never had an issue with a dealer putting issues right if something unexpected arose after purchase. Other than one place from which I bought 2 cars, all the others were single-use as I changed type of car I wanted - one great example was the RR I bought at over 100,000 for £3,500 from probably the biggest independent dealer in the country, despite having a 3 month warranty on it they were still fixing bit free of charge, or for no labour charge 2 years later - cracking bunch of staff, all very honest

no idea where you buy / sell cars, but there must be an underworld I haven't experienced!

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Postby Garrison » Sat May 16, 2015 6:42 pm


Late to this party but here is my thought.

Mileage is one but not the only one measure to assess vehicle condition, and therefore its value. There are other factors, such as operating hours, operating environment, market dynamics, etc.

To most layman, mileage is the easiest definition to understand and to assess. I therefore think that clocking is unacceptable given majority of buyers and sellers place such overly reliance on this single measurement.

One of my recent purchase (911 Turbo) has done just under 2,700 operating hours over 12 years and 94,000 miles, registered and serviced in south east England. It was in better condition than a lot of other cars I have seen with sub-50k miles or living in Scotland (or both).

pete g wrote:Take it from an engineer... its not only Eng items belts etc, a 150k car is just about worn out in all respects.
The front will be gravel rash with FOD
The suspension will be loose and soggy, the seats will have been sat in and god knows what else done in them 5 times more than a 30k car. The gearbox/diff/bearings and bushes will be hanging...
It been exposed to 5 times amount of salt and shite...


I would disagree that all 150k cars are essentially scrap. Personally I place more reliance on operating hours and operating environment than mileage.

I am currently running a MR2 with 191k miles and with the exception of stone chips, the engine, gearbox, suspension, etc. all are tip top. Even the specialist who only looks after Mark 2 MR2s commented that while he only likes the Turbo version, my non-Turbo is significantly faster and better to drive than any other non-Turbo MR2s he has driven.

Given it gets driven hard on drive days and track days, the engine and gearbox are still original. All suspension components got refreshed every 60k (springs, dampers, bushes, mounts, etc.) so it is on its 4th sets of suspension. Everything still work (a/c, all electrics, etc.). I have first refusal from other customers at the specialist if I decided to sell it, despite the mileage.
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