Clocking - What's the Problem?

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Here's a reasonable explanation of the facts and myths. Basically if you change the mileage and don't inform the next owner when you sell the car on, it's fraud.

[akirk]

I am not sure that I follow the OP's logic

- I do understand that we shouldn't judge a car just on mileage
- I do understand that clocking is not of itself illegal

- I don't understand the concept of putting the two together
- clocking is only not illegal if any subsequent purchaser is informed - therefore they will still be aware of the real mileage - otherwise it is very illegal & is fraud. So clocking as a concept for not knowing mileage doesn't work...

I think the comment above about education is far more pertinent - getting the consumer to realise that mileage alone is not the best determinator of condition is a good concept...

Alasdair

[Silk]

I am not sure that I follow the OP's logic

I read it as:
The OP does a lot of mileage and looks after his cars. Therefore the OP is pissed off that his cars are virtually worthless when he come to trade in or sell them. It's just a bit of a whinge because he can't get what he thinks his cars are worth and would happily resort to clocking them to redress the balance.

Something like that, yes. Although I don't necessarily wish to "clock" them myself, I'm well aware there's a possibility some or all of my previous cars have had a "haircut" before being sold on through the trade. If there were to be a clampdown on clocking, then the market for high mileage cars would almost certainly take a dive and I'd get even less. If someone is driving around in my last car and it only shows 20K miles on the clock, they'll still have themselves a nice car and it's likely to be just as reliable as any "other" 20K car. What's the problem? I doubt the clockers would bother with a car that looked like it had done over 100K, as it would be too obvious and not worth the effort.

My cars are always fully maintained and well looked after. Better to have one of those, than a low miler that's been used for short journeys carrying dogs, kids and smokers etc., only goes to the garage when it makes a noise or a light comes on, and is treated with about the same level respect most people would give a washing machine.

It's one of the reasons why I would never buy a used car. Although I'm glad other people do.

[akirk]

mmm - okay, understand the thinking - not sure I agree...

Something like that, yes. Although I don't necessarily wish to "clock" them myself

why not though? you are happy for fraud to take place by clocked cars being sold deceptively as you believe it gets you a higher price when you sell your cars... so why not do the clocking yourself and make more money? You seem happy for someone else to commit fraud so that you can make more money, but not happy to do it yourself?

My cars are always fully maintained and well looked after. Better to have one of those, than a low miler that's been used for short journeys carrying dogs, kids and smokers etc., only goes to the garage when it makes a noise or a light comes on, and is treated with about the same level respect most people would give a washing machine.

It's one of the reasons why I would never buy a used car. Although I'm glad other people do.

You are also not willing to risk buying a used car in case it has issues (been used for short journeys) - yet you are completely happy for someone to buy a car you sold at 70,000 miles - clocked to 20,000 and see no issues?!

- So, I buy that car and have paid more than it is worth because next to it on the forecourt was one in the same condition but with 40,000 on the clock and cheaper...
- I then don't change the timing chain (or xyz component) 10,000 miles later as specified by the manufacturer and 20,000 the engine blows up... I think it has happened at 40,000 - the manufacturer refuses to pay, in fact it has happened at 90,000 and I should have changed the component at 80,000

So I have lost cash on the purchase, and lost cash on work done to the car

I doubt the clockers would bother with a car that looked like it had done over 100K, as it would be too obvious and not worth the effort.

So a car over 100,000 miles will be noticeably in poorer condition - I buy a car ostensibly at 20,000 miles, but was actually your 60,000 mile car clocked down - well presumably it is going to show that 'over 100,000' age 40,000 miles sooner than expected!

If there were to be a clampdown on clocking, then the market for high mileage cars would almost certainly take a dive and I'd get even less.

You would simply get what the car is worth - if your car is in good condition you will get more than another car with the same mileage...

If someone is driving around in my last car and it only shows 20K miles on the clock, they'll still have themselves a nice car and it's likely to be just as reliable as any "other" 20K car. What's the problem?

so your 60,000 mile car clocked to 20,000 you think will be identical to a 20,000 mile car looked after in the same way - of course it won't - what is the problem? it is simply fraud

I am amazed by this discussion - can you really not see the issues? What you are saying is that you are happy to have punters defrauded as long as:
- you gain
- someone else does the fraud

mmm

I am out - not the kind of discussion I think should be on here...

Alasdair

[gannet]

mmm - okay, understand the thinking - not sure I agree...

Something like that, yes. Although I don't necessarily wish to "clock" them myself

why not though? you are happy for fraud to take place by clocked cars being sold deceptively as you believe it gets you a higher price when you sell your cars... so why not do the clocking yourself and make more money? You seem happy for someone else to commit fraud so that you can make more money, but not happy to do it yourself?

My cars are always fully maintained and well looked after. Better to have one of those, than a low miler that's been used for short journeys carrying dogs, kids and smokers etc., only goes to the garage when it makes a noise or a light comes on, and is treated with about the same level respect most people would give a washing machine.

It's one of the reasons why I would never buy a used car. Although I'm glad other people do.

You are also not willing to risk buying a used car in case it has issues (been used for short journeys) - yet you are completely happy for someone to buy a car you sold at 70,000 miles - clocked to 20,000 and see no issues?!

- So, I buy that car and have paid more than it is worth because next to it on the forecourt was one in the same condition but with 40,000 on the clock and cheaper...
- I then don't change the timing chain (or xyz component) 10,000 miles later as specified by the manufacturer and 20,000 the engine blows up... I think it has happened at 40,000 - the manufacturer refuses to pay, in fact it has happened at 90,000 and I should have changed the component at 80,000

So I have lost cash on the purchase, and lost cash on work done to the car

I doubt the clockers would bother with a car that looked like it had done over 100K, as it would be too obvious and not worth the effort.

So a car over 100,000 miles will be noticeably in poorer condition - I buy a car ostensibly at 20,000 miles, but was actually your 60,000 mile car clocked down - well presumably it is going to show that 'over 100,000' age 40,000 miles sooner than expected!

If there were to be a clampdown on clocking, then the market for high mileage cars would almost certainly take a dive and I'd get even less.

You would simply get what the car is worth - if your car is in good condition you will get more than another car with the same mileage...

If someone is driving around in my last car and it only shows 20K miles on the clock, they'll still have themselves a nice car and it's likely to be just as reliable as any "other" 20K car. What's the problem?

so your 60,000 mile car clocked to 20,000 you think will be identical to a 20,000 mile car looked after in the same way - of course it won't - what is the problem? it is simply fraud

I am amazed by this discussion - can you really not see the issues? What you are saying is that you are happy to have punters defrauded as long as:
- you gain
- someone else does the fraud

+1

I am out - not the kind of discussion I think should be on here...

certainly not imho

[trashbat]

It's just another curious attempt to wind up a small pool of familiar posters, is it not?

[jcochrane]

It's just another curious attempt to wind up a small pool of familiar posters, is it not?

Yes. It's a sense of humour that I find laughable.

[trashbat]

It's the choice of audience that I can't understand.

Winding up the internet at large is almost a recognised pastime, but this is more akin to trying to repeatedly troll a poorly-attended coffee morning.

Did the last remaining poster on Usenet die or something?

[Silk]

mmm - okay, understand the thinking - not sure I agree...

Something like that, yes. Although I don't necessarily wish to "clock" them myself

why not though? you are happy for fraud to take place by clocked cars being sold deceptively as you believe it gets you a higher price when you sell your cars... so why not do the clocking yourself and make more money? You seem happy for someone else to commit fraud so that you can make more money, but not happy to do it yourself?

Let's put it another way. If a particular car was popular as a "getaway" vehicle to the extent that it was enough to push up residuals, would you be happy to take advantage? Would you be prepared to accept less for your car if a dealer could guarantee it would never be used for crime? Be honest, does anyone on here really care what happens to their car when they sell it on as long as they get the best price?

[Silk]

Winding up the internet at large is almost a recognised pastime, but this is more akin to trying to repeatedly troll a poorly-attended coffee morning.

Make that un-attended. Nearly a week went by with no posts on here at all. That's because most of the topics discussed are about as interesting as Steve Davis in a coma.

[martine]

...most of the topics discussed are about as interesting as Steve Davis in a coma.

[Silk]

I am out - not the kind of discussion I think should be on here...

certainly not imho

How dare I talk about car related issues on a driving forum. Who knows where it will lead?

[gannet]

I am out - not the kind of discussion I think should be on here...

certainly not imho

How dare I talk about car related issues on a driving forum. Who knows where it will lead?

you are advocating committing fraud and have consistently ignored the well reasoned arguments leveled at you. You asked what was wrong with clocking, seems to me you have your answer - several times over but you still persist.

[trashbat]

Make that un-attended. Nearly a week went by with no posts on here at all. That's because most of the topics discussed are about as interesting as Steve Davis in a coma.

What do you expect from a forum that is largely either dry & technical or administrative? Never mind that you complain about many of the topics anyway.

I don't actually believe that you have any strong opinions about clocking, so it begs the question, what's the point of this exercise?

[Silk]

you are advocating committing fraud and have consistently ignored the well reasoned arguments leveled at you. You asked what was wrong with clocking, seems to me you have your answer - several times over but you still persist.

I've never advocated committing fraud, just acknowledging it's existence and looking at it from a different angle. I'm arguing that clocking isn't the demon it's made out to be and the public may even benefit from it as it creates a market for well-maintained high mileage cars that may not otherwise exist.

What we should really be doing is finding a way to equate a well-looked-after car with a more valuable car. With all the gizmos and sensors fitted to new cars, it shouldn't be that hard. If you want to avoid the risk of someone "hacking" it, you can get the car to back up its data to the "cloud" on a regular basis. The data could include servicing, parts replacement, how the car is being driven and selective data on critical components.

In the end, if you don't want to risk buying a car you know little about, you buy a new one. That's why new cars cost more.