Clocking - What's the Problem?

[akirk]

Do you really believe this, or do you just get your kicks from posting rubbish online?!

I like to look at things from a different point of view now and again. If you prefer to believe everything you read without question, perhaps this thread isn't for you.

If that is the case there are ways of phrasing it / exploring other views which aren't bluntly condoning them - perhaps the way it is written needs to be examined?

If a car at 150,000 miles (well looked after) is in your view the same as a car of 30,000 miles, would that 150k car not have been in even better condition at 30k?! Your logic is flawed.

No, YOUR logic is flawed. At 30K the car was less than 9 months old.

Precisely - so it will be in better condition - how do you therefore think that makes the 150,000 car the same or better?! Even where you have a car doing 30,000 over the same timescale as one doing 150,000 it will be in better condition, however you look after the 150,000 car - unless you are replacing all the non-consumables as well...

There is no way that with two cars both looked after identically one at 150,000 will ever be the same or better than one at 30,000 - there will always be elements that are more worn - the brake pads might have been replaced, but the carpets / the seats / the headliner, the chassis, the engine, etc. etc. etc. will all be worse...

I've already pointed out that the consumables would have been replaced during routing servicing. With regards to the general condition of the car. Anyone, including some on this forum who have seen for themselves, will testify that my cars are always in practically mint condition, regardless of mileage. On the other hand, I know of cars that have only covered average mileage that look like the inside of a skip. So, yes, there's every possibility that my high-milers are in better condition in *every* respect than an equivalent low-miler that's been treated badly.

Ah - okay, now we see the true view - a car that is treated well will be in better condition than one that isn't...
True, and we were in agreement there early on... however that doesn't carry on to your view that two cars identically treated, one at 150,000 and one at 30,000 are the same - they won't be, we all know that is tosh

As the concept of clocking as you advocate only works in that theoretical scenario, it is flawed - a car which does 150,000 looked after well, and then clocked back to 30,000 will give the impression of being the same as a car treated well to 30,000 and not clocked - but will be more tired / in worse condition in lots of places which even the most fastidious owner will not keep as new - it is therefore deceptive / a fraud, the purchaser will not get the same condition car...

it doesn't matter how you look at it - every argument you pose, clocking is legally fraud, and mileage is never the only difference - if you can run two identical cars for 5 years (30k / 6k a year) and then put them in for concours condition having clocked the 150,000 back to 30,000 and the judges find no difference I would be amazed - it just won't happen, unless you replace the interiors / chassis / engine / the whole car!

if the thesis of your argument had been - "why are people so absorbed by mileage as a determinator of condition" then you would probably have had a lot of support - I have bought / run lots of higher mileage cars and enjoyed trouble free motoring generally - but an out and out advocation of criminality is hardly going to be supported...

Alasdair

[Silk]

if you can run two identical cars for 5 years (30k / 6k a year) and then put them in for concours condition having clocked the 150,000 back to 30,000 and the judges find no difference I would be amazed - it just won't happen, unless you replace the interiors / chassis / engine / the whole car!

If the 150,000 miler had been better looked after, then it's certainly possible for the "judges" to find it to be in better condition than the 30,000 miler. There are so many factors that influence the condition of the car. Age, what it's used for, how it's been driven and how it's been stored between being drives will affect it at least as much.

If the two cars are ex-fleet, then you would suspect the 30,000 miler to have been driven in harsher conditions, such as Central London for most of its life - no one in their right mind would want one of those.

Your argument about me condoning crime is also flawed. I merely pointed out that clockers provide a market for high mileage cars which I'm than happy to exploit, just as the makers of posh cars are happy for them to be sold to gangsters, drug dealers an third world dictators. If you had to guarantee that all car sales were "ethical" the trade would be in big trouble. How do you think sales of Toyota Land Cruisers would be affected if there were no Taliban!

[MGF]

How are you exploiting the market? You are getting the value of the car with the high mileage. You'd get that if the car wasn't going to be clocked.

[akirk]

if you can run two identical cars for 5 years (30k / 6k a year) and then put them in for concours condition having clocked the 150,000 back to 30,000 and the judges find no difference I would be amazed - it just won't happen, unless you replace the interiors / chassis / engine / the whole car!

If the 150,000 miler had been better looked after, then it's certainly possible for the "judges" to find it to be in better condition than the 30,000 miler. There are so many factors that influence the condition of the car. Age, what it's used for, how it's been driven and how it's been stored between being drives will affect it at least as much.

No - I am refering to two cars maintained identically - if you wish to be scientific and say that mileage is not relevant, therefore clocking removes a misnomer that mileage = worse quality - then you need both to be maintained identically and as we all know they simply won't be the same at the end...

replacing consumables on a schedule, washing the car and hoovering it does not negate the wear and tear on the whole car over that mileage...

Your argument about me condoning crime is also flawed. I merely pointed out that clockers provide a market for high mileage cars which I'm than happy to exploit...

which means that you are condoning crime - the fact that crime exists elsewhere in the world doesn't make it right in this instance...

I think perhaps a course in logic might work

Alasdair

[Silk]

I think perhaps a course in logic might work

Let us know how you get on.

[revian]

I think perhaps a course in logic might work

Since he mentioned the G word on another thread...maybe Silk needs the course of treatment consisting of the Two Tablets. No water needed.

[Silk]

How are you exploiting the market? You are getting the value of the car with the high mileage. You'd get that if the car wasn't going to be clocked.

Clockers need a supply of high mileage cars to clock. Supply and demand. Demand increases, prices increase.

[TripleS]

Six oagescon, you still haven't got it

Edit: six BloodyTabletKeyboard pages

Well if you will insist on getting involved with these fancy electronic gadgets......

[MGF]

How are you exploiting the market? You are getting the value of the car with the high mileage. You'd get that if the car wasn't going to be clocked.

Clockers need a supply of high mileage cars to clock. Supply and demand. Demand increases, prices increase.

Above private sale value? That's unlikely unless you are a party to the fraud,

[TheInsanity1234]

Silk, if I were in your position, I would just accept the fact people are less likely to purchase one of your cars because it does more miles than the average car.

There's two ways to solve the problem, either you run the car into the ground and sell it for scrap, or you just accept the fact you're not getting what you think you should be getting, and then move on with your life, and just be glad you're able to replace your car every couple of years with a brand new one.

Our Clio was traded in for £1300 when we got rid of it, it was an '57 Clio Expression 1.5 dCi which had 120,000 miles on the clock.

My mum was a little bit disappointed, but here's the thing, she didn't clock the car so she could get more money.

She just accepted the money, and put it down as a deposit on our Yeti.

The fact the public don't like to buy high mileage cars is just a fact of life, and one you'll need to accept instead of trying to advocate clocking, so you can get more.

[Silk]

How are you exploiting the market? You are getting the value of the car with the high mileage. You'd get that if the car wasn't going to be clocked.

Clockers need a supply of high mileage cars to clock. Supply and demand. Demand increases, prices increase.

Above private sale value? That's unlikely unless you are a party to the fraud,

What are you talking about? That's a bit like saying Toyota are party to global jihad because they sell Landcruisers. I simply pointed out that it's highly likely high mileage cars in otherwise good condition are "clocked" and this is bound to have some effect on the demand for them. It's one hell of a leap to suggest I'm party to fraud.

[Silk]

Silk, if I were in your position, I would just accept the fact people are less likely to purchase one of your cars because it does more miles than the average car.

That's exactly what I do. But I would probably get even less if there were no clockers. Cars like mine invariably end up at auction - who knows what happens to them after that? Should I care? Not really. No more than I would care that I could get more for a Suburu Impreza because they're popular with small-time drug dealers. That doesn't make me party to drug dealing.

In the end, so many things affect price. Some logical, some illogical. You just have to get what you can. I've been doing this for a long time now - sometimes I do ok, sometimes not so ok. You just do what you can to stay on the road when your job depends on it. I certainly haven't got time to care what happens to my old cars once they've left my possession.

[TheInsanity1234]

I got the impression that you actually clocked your cars.

But if you don't then I'll have no more say on this matter.

[Horse]

I spent some time in NZ a couple of years back, including some of that with the Hella lighting people out there (about half a day ).

I hadn't been aware that UV in sunlight can degrade plastics used on vehicles. Now, it's a particular issue in NZ (hole, ozone layer, etc., so I was told), with some lower-quality plastic deteriorating more quickly.

Perhaps this is an extreme example, but it shows that there are occasions when 'age' will be a better guide to condition of components than 'miles'.

Click on this logo

Here: http://www.hella.co.nz/en/products/driv ... -daylights™/led-safety-daylights™-rectangular.html

[Silk]

I spent some time in NZ a couple of years back, including some of that with the Hella lighting people out there (about half a day ).

I hadn't been aware that UV in sunlight can degrade plastics used on vehicles. Now, it's a particular issue in NZ (hole, ozone layer, etc., so I was told), with some lower-quality plastic deteriorating more quickly.

Perhaps this is an extreme example, but it shows that there are occasions when 'age' will be a better guide to condition of components than 'miles'.

According to my physics teacher, glass blocks UV. Which is the reason you don't get sunburn in a car. It's probably the light and, more so, the heat that causes the damage. Most of the damage is probably done when the car is parked and allowed to get hot. Even if you drive the car a lot, the interior temperature will be lower while it's being driven due to ventilation/aircon.

Although my car gets used quite a lot, it still spends most of its time in the garage, so it never freezes up and it stays out of the sun. Animals, small children and smokers are also banned. I would definitely say that age affects a car much more than miles driven. A 15 year old car with 75,000 on the clock will probably be knackered, whereas a 3 year old with 150,000 on the clock will have plenty of life left. Even the engine bay looked nearly new in the last car I took to 150,000 miles!