Clocking - What's the Problem?

[Horse]

I spent some time in NZ a couple of years back, including some of that with the Hella lighting people out there (about half a day ).

I hadn't been aware that UV in sunlight can degrade plastics used on vehicles. Now, it's a particular issue in NZ (hole, ozone layer, etc., so I was told), with some lower-quality plastic deteriorating more quickly.

According to my physics teacher, glass blocks UV. Which is the reason you don't get sunburn in a car. It's probably the light and, more so, the heat that causes the damage. Most of the damage is probably done when the car is parked and allowed to get hot.

The reason it came up was that they were selecting and fitting plastic-lensed lighting for us I presume the same applies to any other exterior plastics.

Mind you, look at the red paint used on older Vauxhalls . . . pink! Our old Nova had a good going over with the T-Cut then 'colour-restoring' polish before trade-in

[christopherwk]

A car I sold a while ago with 217,000 miles on the clock, appeared on eBay sometime later with 94,000 miles on it, with a starting price of twice as much as I sold it for!

Furthermore, I saw it twice since I sold it.

[Silk]

A car I sold a while ago with 217,000 miles on the clock, appeared on eBay sometime later with 94,000 miles on it, with a starting price of twice as much as I sold it for!

Furthermore, I saw it twice since I sold it.

There you go. You probably wouldn't have got as much for it in the first place if there were no clockers - a car like that it "clocker fodder". You'll burn in hell for all eternity for your part in the crime.

[akirk]

A car I sold a while ago with 217,000 miles on the clock, appeared on eBay sometime later with 94,000 miles on it, with a starting price of twice as much as I sold it for!

Furthermore, I saw it twice since I sold it.

There you go. You probably wouldn't have got as much for it in the first place if there were no clockers - a car like that it "clocker fodder". You'll burn in hell for all eternity for your part in the crime.

I think you will find he got the normal price for it - and the crooks made the profit... I doubt at any point they said, lets pay him above market value as we are going to lie about it when we sell it

Alasdair

[Silk]

A car I sold a while ago with 217,000 miles on the clock, appeared on eBay sometime later with 94,000 miles on it, with a starting price of twice as much as I sold it for!

Furthermore, I saw it twice since I sold it.

There you go. You probably wouldn't have got as much for it in the first place if there were no clockers - a car like that it "clocker fodder". You'll burn in hell for all eternity for your part in the crime.

I think you will find he got the normal price for it - and the crooks made the profit... I doubt at any point they said, lets pay him above market value as we are going to lie about it when we sell it

You're missing the point. The clockers help create the market. Without them he would have got even less or not sold it at all. People have been told for so long that cars are worthless once they get to 100,000 miles it's hard to convince them otherwise.

[akirk]

You're missing the point. The clockers help create the market. Without them he would have got even less or not sold it at all. People have been told for so long that cars are worthless once they get to 100,000 miles it's hard to convince them otherwise.

really?! if the crooks were the only ones bidding they would undoubtedly have bought for scrap value or starting price - why would they pay more, they wish to maximise their illegal gains...
if they bid against someone else, then that other person was also prepared to pay roughly that amount, so the car went for market value - market value for a 215,000 miles car...

do you really believe that he got more for it because crooks were buying it - when did criminals ever pay more than they need to?

the only way a bunch of crooks would change the market value for the car while it is listed at 215,000 miles is if they pay more than it is worth - and they don't need to, it would eat into their 'profits' so they are not setting or creating a market - they are picking up cars which are cheap because that is the market value and then conning people when they resell - not difficult to understand

Alasdair

[Silk]

You're missing the point. The clockers help create the market. Without them he would have got even less or not sold it at all. People have been told for so long that cars are worthless once they get to 100,000 miles it's hard to convince them otherwise.

do you really believe that he got more for it because crooks were buying it - when did criminals ever pay more than they need to?

Who else do you think is buying these cars? The "crooks" are bidding against each other. If someone who isn't going to clock it wants to buy it, they're up against the clockers. You're talking as if there is some magical "market value" that exists outside of the market - there isn't. No market, no market value, it's that simple.

[MGF]

Clockers need a supply of high mileage cars to clock. Supply and demand. Demand increases, prices increase.

Above private sale value? That's unlikely unless you are a party to the fraud,

... It's one hell of a leap to suggest I'm party to fraud.

I'm suggesting the opposite. The fact you are not part of the fraud means that there is probably little or no benefit to you as any theoretical increase in values generally is likely to be marginal if they do in fact exist. Hence your complaint at the beginning of the thread.

[TheInsanity1234]

I don't understand.

You're all suggesting that you might get more for a 215k mile car because of people who buy other high mileage cars, clock them, then sell them on for more money.

How does the fact there are cars which don't display their true mileage mean the cars that do display their true mileage are worth more.

I really don't understand.

Unless you're suggesting that the high-mileage cars are more valuable because a lot of people buy them to make a profit by clocking them?

Then in which case, you're not going to get much more simply because the clockers will only pay market, or below market value.

So...

I still don't understand.

[trashbat]

It would potentially make a very small amount of sense if noone wanted to buy a 215k mile car, and lots of people wanted to buy a believably low mileage version of the same, and there was insufficient supply of the latter.

As at least two of those things don't appear to be true as regards the E320, it doesn't work.

[WhoseGeneration]

It would potentially make a very small amount of sense if noone wanted to buy a 215k mile car, and lots of people wanted to buy a believably low mileage version of the same, and there was insufficient supply of the latter.

As at least two of those things don't appear to be true as regards the E320, it doesn't work.

Perhaps we should ask Silk if he would be happy to fly on an aircraft which had had its hours "fudged"?

[trashbat]

Perhaps he only flies on brand new aeroplanes?

Discard this Boeing, for it is once soiled!

[WhoseGeneration]

Perhaps he only flies on brand new aeroplanes?

Discard this Boeing, for it is once soiled!

Nah, new cabin fitout and he'd be happy. It would appear that he only thinks about appearances, not actual use of the important bits of any machine.

[Silk]

Unless you're suggesting that the high-mileage cars are more valuable because a lot of people buy them to make a profit by clocking them?

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. That's because it's true.

Then in which case, you're not going to get much more simply because the clockers will only pay market, or below market value.

So...

I still don't understand.

You're making the mistake of assuming that "market value" is somehow set in stone. It's not. What you get for a used car is determined by supply and demand.

This is not the same as when you "trade in" an average mileage car at a dealership, as the price you get is heavily subsidised by inflating the price of the new car, so it gives some stability to the market. Manufacturers and dealers are well aware that the residual value of their cars is as important as how much they sell for in the first place. It's in their interest to keep this as high as possible. Dealers use many "tricks" to achieve it - they've been doing it for a long time now.

The reason I know all this is because my work colleagues and I are buying and selling cars regularly and our company pays an advisor who is in the motor-trade. When we come to sell our cars, we're given inside information on market conditions and the best way to offload a car depending on age and mileage. As the advisor has no vested interest, we can be confident the information is reliable.

[Silk]

It would potentially make a very small amount of sense if noone wanted to buy a 215k mile car, and lots of people wanted to buy a believably low mileage version of the same, and there was insufficient supply of the latter.

As at least two of those things don't appear to be true as regards the E320, it doesn't work.

Perhaps we should ask Silk if he would be happy to fly on an aircraft which had had its hours "fudged"?

Perhaps you shouldn't. It would be a stupid question.