Let the games begin ....

[triquet]

http://www.brake.org.uk/news/1437-dl-overtaking-may15

[jont]

Tempted to remove the link. Giving them lots of hits from an advanced driving site only makes them think their views are credible. The less airtime they are given and the sooner they are lost from sight, the sooner the UK might actually be able to have a constructive discussion about road safety

[triquet]

Tempted to remove the link. Giving them lots of hits from an advanced driving site only makes them think their views are credible. The less airtime they are given and the sooner they are lost from sight, the sooner the UK might actually be able to have a constructive discussion about road safety

You have a point. But I do have this nagging worry that overtaking on single carriageway roads is becoming socially unacceptable to a large section of the Great British Public.

[Silk]

Tempted to remove the link. Giving them lots of hits from an advanced driving site only makes them think their views are credible. The less airtime they are given and the sooner they are lost from sight, the sooner the UK might actually be able to have a constructive discussion about road safety

Although I'm no fan of Brake, I can't really find much to disagree with when it comes to overtaking. It's not as if they're saying no one should overtake, just that it should only be done when you're certain it's safe. What's wrong with that?

There are occasions when I cringe at some of the "gung ho" posts on here. As far as I'm concerned, safety is the essence of good driving, not something to just bear in mind. Anything else should be saved for the racetrack.

[akirk]

agree that you should only do it when safe
agree that many do otherwise
agree that it is not always necessary

but there are inaccuracies in what they say, e.g.:

Overtaking is dangerous because is impossible to accurately judge the speed and distance of approaching traffic.

really? they must be very bad drivers in Brake then!

I suspect that it is rarely an inability to judge speed that is the issue:
- forgetting to check that you can overtake in half the distance... perhaps
- forgetting that cars do come round bends towards you... perhaps
- forgetting to allow for side junctions... perhaps
- forgetting that the person you are overtaking may do something strange... perhaps
- judging the speed of oncoming traffic - much rarer I would expect

If I am overtaking on a straight stretch of road (assuming sufficient space) I would much rather have a car approaching as I can accurately judge its speed and know that I have ample time / space or not - and make the appropriate decision

a straight (however long) ending in a corner (and all straights do!) may have something unexpected coming the other way (e.g. a motorbike doing 120) - I have to make far more allowance for the unknown than for the known - it is therefore potentially more difficult to overtake with no oncoming traffic and an unknown situation, than with oncoming traffic, a known situation, and carefully calculated sufficient space...

Alasdair

[Horse]

Overtaking is dangerous because is impossible to accurately judge the speed and distance of approaching traffic.

I suspect that it is rarely an inability to judge speed that is the issue:
- judging the speed of oncoming traffic - much rarer I would expect

If I am overtaking on a straight stretch of road (assuming sufficient space) I would much rather have a car approaching as I can accurately judge its speed . . .

a straight (however long) . . .

Partially.

There are perceptual limitations of the eyes and brain which cannot be overcome by training or skilled judgement.

[Horse]

http://www.perceptionweb.com/abstract.cgi?id=p090183

Vision, visibility, and perception in driving Brian L Hills
Abstract. 
Recent research is reviewed and its implications discussed. 'On-the-Spot' accident investigations have confirmed that errors of perception by the driver are a major contributory factor to accidents. However, the available evidence suggests that few of these are attributable to reduced or defective vision, since at best only a weak relationship has been found between a driver's level of vision (or visual performance) and his accident rate. A number of reasons for this general finding are considered, including driver compensation. For all drivers, the rapid fall in visual acuity with angular distance from the centre of vision presents particular problems, giving special significance to eye-movement patterns and the problems of visual search. Numerous physical and psychophysical restrictions on visibility could lead to the 'looked, but failed to see' type of accident, but their relative importance requires evaluation. There is now much evidence that the driver is quite often operating beyond his visual or perceptual capabilities in a number of key driving situations, including overtaking, joining or crossing a high-speed road, and a number of nighttime situations. It is concluded that 'expectancy', based on experience in both the long and the short term, has a profound influence on driver perception and assessment of risk. For all drivers, serious errors of judgement from time to time would seem inevitable. In general, these do not lead to accidents because of, among other things, the safety margins added by the driver and adjustments made by other road users. Thus, despite his limitations and fallibilities, the average driver is involved in surprisingly few serious incidents, particularly in view of the rapid rate of decision making that is required. However, the present accident rate should not be accepted as inevitable and various countermeasures are discussed.

[jont]

Overtaking is dangerous because is impossible to accurately judge the speed and distance of approaching traffic.

I suspect that it is rarely an inability to judge speed that is the issue:
- judging the speed of oncoming traffic - much rarer I would expect

If I am overtaking on a straight stretch of road (assuming sufficient space) I would much rather have a car approaching as I can accurately judge its speed . . .

a straight (however long) . . .

Partially.

There are perceptual limitations of the eyes and brain which cannot be overcome by training or skilled judgement.

We have quite a long (~2.5 mile) straight near us, followed (or preceded, depending on which way you're driving) by some very open bends. I find it easier to judge distances to oncomers with a cross view and lateral movement, than down the straight where there's often /something/ in view, but could be a long way off.

With a high performance car, you also have to consider the reaction of the oncomer (and overtakee). They may not realise how much performance your car has, so what is a very safe gap might make them think you haven't seen them at all.

[akirk]

however I think that we (hopefully!) factor in a safety margin - so our judgement about oncoming speed is not a precise formulaic analysis of closing speed and distance - but a more general judgement based on I will be at that point in the road, they will be there - we will / won't hit!

it is no different to our ability to judge a ball in tennis, catch an egg when thrown to us, watch athletics and understand who is winning - the human brain is pretty clever really...

agree that cross views and other clues can help in terms of judging perspectives, but even on a straight road there are plenty of clues, from a bird hopping around on the carriageway to a field entry to telegraph poles etc.

I also suspect that for most drivers there is a built in caution - therefore even if we were to feel that it was close in reality there may be plenty of space - perhaps an issue though when it comes to the driver being overtaken as their perception may be over-cautious

Alasdair

[exportmanuk]

I think overtaking is a lost art ( or never learned for many)

Today I drove from Manchester to Sheffield over the snake pass. somewhere not far before Ladybower I came upon a stream of slow moving traffic speeds between 25 and 35 mph in a 50 zone. Impossible to overtake anything in the car as everyone was too close and there were no gaps to use as stepping stones. On occasion I could see the front of the queue some 8 vehicle ahead, it was a modern car being by a mature woman. Even at points where it was safe to pass the 2nd car made no attempt. On the climb up from Ladybower they/we caught up on a laden HGV so the pace slowed further, but eventually as the road levelled out the HGV started to gain speed and pulled away. Some distance further along the road there is a straight section with good visibility, even then no one in front of me made move to overtake this slow moving car so I pulled out and accelerated pass them all giving a friendly toot to warn of my presence. Having pass them all ( Still within the posted limit I might add) several other vehicle drivers suddenly woke up and passed the car too.

Not sure but I think they had all gone into some sort of lemming mode and could not think beyond following the vehicle in front. My overtake seemed to release the from a trance

[jonquirk]

I read the Brake piece: a finely crafted slice of emotional blackmail designed to pile on the guilt and make overtaking as socially unacceptable as incest or drink driving. This is a far cheaper and easier approach than teaching drivers to make better decisions when considering an overtake. It also avoids the need to teach the equally important lesson that it's OK to be overtaken.

Failing that we may as well fit all cars with a hook on the front and a ring on the back and hitch them all together like a train...

[trashbat]

With both the IAM and BRAKE telling us that various elements of driving are 'impossible', it's a wonder that anyone gets anywhere

[Carbon Based]

...only to do so if absolutely essential, for instance to overtake an extremely slow moving vehicle...

The most frequently poor overtaking I see is of cyclists by car drivers.

These drivers seem to have the attitude that because the bicycles are extremely slow they are not obliged to slow down and will barge past without visibility or even into oncoming traffic.

[TheInsanity1234]

I have made a couple of absolutely awful overtakes where I overtook while approaching a blind corner or even, overtaken a car with oncoming traffic, as in, if I didn't go above 80 (as I did) I would've ended up in an head-on.

They were back when I was very new to driving on the road, and obsessed with maintaining exactly the speed limit wherever I can.

However, the more I drive, the less impatient I get.
Before, if I was stuck behind someone driving at 55 mph in NSL, then I got very annoyed and would be questioning why this driver cannot maintain 60.

Now, when I'm behind someone doing 55 in NSL, my natural reaction is to go "well, it's only 5 mph, that's not awful", but I still maintain a minimum of a 3 second gap, to allow other people behind me to go ahead and leapfrog if they wish.

Also, I hated being overtaken, I felt it was an insult to my driving abilities.

Now, I drive as fast as I feel is safe, and I know for sure I'm not a slouch at all, but my driving instructor said something to me while I was doing pass plus which I now live by:
"Remember, there is always someone who is driving faster than you."

Now, I drive as quickly as I can, but always drive in such a way I accommodate anyone who does indeed overtake me (i.e, if I see them following closely, I'll position myself to the left of my lane to allow maximum vision for the following driver, assuming I consider it safe for them to overtake, slow down a tad when I see them moving across, etc etc)

Having said that, I've also done a few overtakes recently, and despite the fact there was no oncoming traffic for miles, and I could've easily overtaken them at the speed limit without breaking a sweat, (overtakee was doing about 45 in NSL), I still break the speed limit whilst on the offside of the road, just to minimise the actual time spent in the path of potential oncoming traffic.

[Garrison]

Overtaking is dangerous because is impossible to accurately judge the speed and distance of approaching traffic.

With a high performance car, you also have to consider the reaction of the oncomer (and overtakee). They may not realise how much performance your car has, so what is a very safe gap might make them think you haven't seen them at all.

+1.

Here are 2 observations in the last month.

1) Driving on A404 from Chorleywood to Little Chalfont. I was the 4th car along and noted the 3rd car was driven by an old gentleman tail-gating the 2nd car but not made any attempt to overtake. On approach to a garden centre, the 1st car slowed to turn into the garden centre which caused the 3rd car had to emergency brake (its brake light was "flashing" on in his Vauxhall Insignia). I hanged well back and I don't really have to brake at all.

Now I am the 3rd car and with a left bend coming up, I set the car up for overtaking. See a long-ish straight down the left of the 2 cars in front so offside at the end of the left hand bend (again, no sign of the 2nd car wanting to overtake but still tail-gating), and despite a on-coming van, there is enough space to overtake. I assessed and overtook both cars quickly. On overtaking the leading vehicle, I noticed its brake light came on (at c. 45mpg in NSL). It took me c. 3 seconds to overtake the 2 cars and get back into the nearside, and a further maybe 5 seconds before the on-coming van drive pass me.

2) On a recent drive with ChristianAB in Surrey, southbound on B2026 from Hosey Hill, there was enough space to do a 2-car overtake. Set car up for possible overtake before right bend, check the straight while in the bend, offside at the exit of a right bend, assessed again and OK to overtake both cars in front. No on-coming traffic and I started accelerating from c. 25-30 mph on to the straight. Overtaking was done in c. 3 seconds and I was back to nearside. Again, the lead car brake light went on when the front of my car has already passed its rear bumper. There were enough straight before the next left bend that I don't have to use the brakes to upset the cars I have just overtaken.

On both occasion, I was in a 911 Turbo. Now, both overtaking was safe and, while I used more acceleration from my car, and speed was not high. I really do not think there is a need for the lead car to brake in both situations.

My conclusion is that in both situation, both drivers of the lead cars were unable to judge the speed of me from my overtaking position, the oncoming traffic, the space available and the time each vehicle will take to cover the space (straight) in front of them.