Hidden speed cameras

[petes]

I've read an article recently where people are complaining about speed camera vans being obscured and not clearly visible from a distance. The argument being that they're supposed to deter rather than catch speeders. Cynics therefore say that hiding then is just a way of making more money.

Is it not possible that making ALL cameras hidden will have the effect of forcing drivers to adhere to speed limits all the time, rather than just when they see a camera, and therefore act as an even better deterrent?

[jont]

I've read an article recently where people are complaining about speed camera vans being obscured and not clearly visible from a distance. The argument being that they're supposed to deter rather than catch speeders. Cynics therefore say that hiding then is just a way of making more money.

Is it not possible that making ALL cameras hidden will have the effect of forcing drivers to adhere to speed limits all the time, rather than just when they see a camera, and therefore act as an even better deterrent?

Ah, so you're of the opinion that it's okay to crash so long as you're not speeding when you do so?

[petes]

I've read an article recently where people are complaining about speed camera vans being obscured and not clearly visible from a distance. The argument being that they're supposed to deter rather than catch speeders. Cynics therefore say that hiding then is just a way of making more money.

Is it not possible that making ALL cameras hidden will have the effect of forcing drivers to adhere to speed limits all the time, rather than just when they see a camera, and therefore act as an even better deterrent?

Ah, so you're of the opinion that it's okay to crash so long as you're not speeding when you do so?

No. I'm not necessarily expressing an opinion either way on the rights and wrongs of speeding. I'm just suggesting that the effectiveness of deterring speeding with the use of cameras would be increased if those cameras were routinely hidden.

[jont]

But do you want to stop speeding, or do you want to improve road safety? The problem I have is that our general outlook seems to be to equate the two things. Personally I'd rather we stopped people having accidents, than encouraged the view that it's okay (see government road safety adverts), so long as they aren't speeding when they do so

[akirk]

surely the issue / debate has nothing to do with speeding, but the hypocrisy of:
- saying that speed cameras / vans are needed because of hazardous areas
- hiding said camera vans

i.e. the question of will this make people drive at the speed limit is a red herring..
if it is really about safety - make it obvious - if it is about revenue / punishment, then be honest

Alasdair

[petes]

But do you want to stop speeding, or do you want to improve road safety? The problem I have is that our general outlook seems to be to equate the two things. Personally I'd rather we stopped people having accidents, than encouraged the view that it's okay (see government road safety adverts), so long as they aren't speeding when they do so

I feel you're trying to turn this into an argument about the rights and wrongs of speeding. That's not the point.

I was attempting to discuss whether speed cameras are more effective when clearly on show, of if they were to be hidden.

[jont]

I was attempting to discuss whether speed cameras are more effective when clearly on show, of if they were to be hidden.

What do you want them to achieve? If the idea that hiding speed cameras will force people to focus on complying with speed limits, then you also need to think about what else they could be doing with that attention. Are you always /truly/ 100% confident you know the speed limit on a given section of road? As councils inconsistencies about limit setting grow, would you rather drivers focussed attention on the actual hazards, or look for repeater signs on the section of road they are on?

[gannet]

I'm with jont on this one,

the new style speed cameras they have on the m25 and a couple ive spied on the m1 at the side of the road on gantries make it more stressful - ie Ive got to continuly to watch my speed as they aren't obvious. attention that could be better spent making sure I know whats happening around me.

There was a period where all speed cameras were actually grey... then they went yellow... now back to grey why I wonder - not generating enough doh?

[Carbon Based]

From a non scientific observation, the camera strategy most effective at reducing speed are the average speed type. Clearly visible, well used on motorway road works and increasingly on A roads

On the motorway it is what cruise control was invented for.

[Silk]

I've read an article recently where people are complaining about speed camera vans being obscured and not clearly visible from a distance. The argument being that they're supposed to deter rather than catch speeders. Cynics therefore say that hiding then is just a way of making more money.

Is it not possible that making ALL cameras hidden will have the effect of forcing drivers to adhere to speed limits all the time, rather than just when they see a camera, and therefore act as an even better deterrent?

I think the problem isn't whether or not speed traps are hidden or visible, it's the entire process. You just get a letter in the post some time after the event telling you that you're in big trouble, unless you opt to pay a "bribe" to make it all go away - having your day in court is likely to cost you very dearly as the penalties have increased dramatically (this has largely gone unnoticed by the motoring public). At least if you get pulled over by a real policeman, there's an element of fair play.

[TripleS]

I've read an article recently where people are complaining about speed camera vans being obscured and not clearly visible from a distance. The argument being that they're supposed to deter rather than catch speeders. Cynics therefore say that hiding then is just a way of making more money.

Is it not possible that making ALL cameras hidden will have the effect of forcing drivers to adhere to speed limits all the time, rather than just when they see a camera, and therefore act as an even better deterrent?

I think the problem isn't whether or not speed traps are hidden or visible, it's the entire process. You just get a letter in the post some time after the event telling you that you're in big trouble, unless you opt to pay a "bribe" to make it all go away - having your day in court is likely to cost you very dearly as the penalties have increased dramatically (this has largely gone unnoticed by the motoring public). At least if you get pulled over by a real policeman, there's an element of fair play.

Yes, I suppose so; but discussing a possible speeding offence at the roadside with a police officer is, I suspect, a relatively rare event these days. Now that we have the 'benefit' of all this technology, I expect the vast majority of speeding offences, and various other motoring offences too, are automated, and that's that.

....and Steve, to go back to a previous question from you: no, I don't think I'm mad to increasingly focus on the enjoyment to be derived from the garden, rather than motoring. You may, of course, disagree.

In any case, I expect you'll be retiring in another three or four years, at which point your views might change.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[MGF]

Both. Hidden for general deterrent. Visible to reduce speeds at specific hazards.

[petes]

Both. Hidden for general deterrent. Visible to reduce speeds at specific hazards.

That would be my thoughts on the issue. To me, making all speed cameras clearly visible is as good as telling drivers they can drive at whatever speed they like elsewhere. There needs to be an element of uncertainty as to where enforcement might be taking place.

This is a completely separate argument to whether there's a link between speed and safety. I wouldn't even open that can of worms on a public forum!

[martine]

...This is a completely separate argument to whether there's a link between speed and safety. I wouldn't even open that can of worms on a public forum!

Oh why not? We debated here many times - it's not a police state (yet).

If anyone fancies debating speeding and limits and roads safety once more, can I ask they start a new thread and keep this one purely for hidden/visible speed cameras as the original poster wanted?

[jont]

Both. Hidden for general deterrent. Visible to reduce speeds at specific hazards.

That would be my thoughts on the issue. To me, making all speed cameras clearly visible is as good as telling drivers they can drive at whatever speed they like elsewhere. There needs to be an element of uncertainty as to where enforcement might be taking place.

Why should enforcement only be about speed? I'd rather see covert enforcement of /all/ driving rules. To mis-quote you from above, making all road safety enforcement about speed sends the message that so long as you're not speeding, you can break whatever other traffic laws you want (mobile phone use, insurance, license, VED, MOT, disfunctional lighting etc etc).