An answer to a question.

[TheInsanity1234]

Hello all.

I recall there was a discussion about how you were supposed to use the chevrons on the motorway, the ones which encourage you to follow the car in front with more than 2 chevrons in between, but the discussion was pointed at the fact the signage wasn't clear as to how much space you're supposed to leave, i.e, the gap between 2 chevrons, or was it supposed to be the gap between 3 chevrons?

Well, I've found a video on YouTube from a channel called Highways England.

At 3:06, there's a demonstration of how you're supposed to use the chevrons.

This is the video in question:

[waremark]

A pity it's not a bit clearer with a little more emphasis on that point. And no mention at all of planning your multi lane drive to keep safe empty space alongside you as well as in front.

But overall a good video, I wish the BBC had to show this sort of video as public service broadcasting.

Well found Insanity.

[TheInsanity1234]

Agree with you on all those points there!

It's impressive what boredom plus the internet can produce

[Kimosabe]

May be stating the obvious (i'm known for it ), what I think this demonstrates, is how far ahead many drivers are looking at any given time, chevrons or no chevrons, wet or dry, other cars or no other cars. Motorways are statistically our safest roads but when it goes wrong you'll probably die and following too closely is the principle reason for people crashing on motorways, so don't! That's easy to understand, until emotions get involved.

I think this is about right. If a driver is following at a distance of 80m at 70mph, they have a couple of seconds to react to the vehicle infront. Halve that distance to 40m and the speed they should be traveling at is less than 30mph but they now have about a second to react at 70mph. This dangerous behaviour causes stress, anger, more stress and probably aggression. That's also easy to understand until emotions set reason aside.

So how about when the driver infront refuses to move aside even when it's safe and reasonable to do so? They're blocking projected personal space and thus causing stress and probably aggression but should they be rear-ended, who is to blame but the driver behind for allowing their emotions to cloud their ability to reason. Who among us is not human? And what is done to prevent this? Chevrons! Imagine being told to calm down at the point that you've just about had enough of people halving your personal space? That's what value chevrons probably hold for many.

Without wanting to divert this important point too much, this is why I have always disagreed with the pre-overtaking 'following' distance/ position as taught to associates by IAM/RoADAR, as it is a clear breach of 'the two-second rule' and I ain't no fool. (looks for MR T emoji)

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Imagine being told to calm down at the point that you've just about had enough of people halving your personal space?

Surely the people being told to calm down are the tailgaters? They're in charge of their own personal space. If they want more, all they have to do is drop back. I fail to see how the innocent motorist in front (unless they pulled out in the path of someone going faster, already inside the 2 second following distance) is to blame for "halving the personal space" of the impatient driver behind? Perhaps I've misunderstood?

[Kimosabe]

Imagine being told to calm down at the point that you've just about had enough of people halving your personal space?

Surely the people being told to calm down are the tailgaters? They're in charge of their own personal space. If they want more, all they have to do is drop back. I fail to see how the innocent motorist in front (unless they pulled out in the path of someone going faster, already inside the 2 second following distance) is to blame for "halving the personal space" of the impatient driver behind? Perhaps I've misunderstood?

No you're quite right. I was just considering things from a possibility of the tailgater's perspective and what incitement to impatience that motorist may experience during those times when someone will not budge from the inside lane for miles ie what causes them to tailgate? It's correct to say that we are all in control of our own feelings but that can be over ruled by emotions when someone is less than considerate towards us and all that aggrieved person thinks they have at their disposal at that point, is a headlight flasher semaphore. Please don't think i'm defending anyone here, i'm just bouncing ideas around about when lane hogging causes situations.

There's a stretch of the Westbound A27 near Lewes (Southeram roundabout A26)that comes to mind for me, along which on many occasions drivers will sit in the inside lane until they cross a lane to turn off at Sussex Uni or worse, continue up the hill past the Amex, past Coldean, past the A23 turn off, Devil's Dyke and all the way down to the West Hove golf course/ A293. It's several miles of observing how daft some people can be and what effect that often has on other motorists. I can do this from the relative safety of Lane 1 of 2. When I turn off at the Golf Course, sometimes that driver is still on the inside lane heading West on the A27. I travel that stretch of A27 from Lewes very regularly and it's a 7/10 outcome that this will happen and very often, i'll meet them at the A293-A270 junction lights. The blame, in the event of a collision along any part of this mammoth single-lane hoggfest, would be squarely on the tailgater but my guess is that their argument would be "they wouldn't get out of the way, all the way back to the A26 at Southeram!".

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/A27 ... 743053f028

[akirk]

I think this is about right. If a driver is following at a distance of 80m at 70mph, they have a couple of seconds to react to the vehicle infront. Halve that distance to 40m and the speed they should be traveling at is less than 30mph but they now have about a second to react at 70mph. This dangerous behaviour causes stress, anger, more stress and probably aggression. That's also easy to understand until emotions set reason aside.

I am more comfortable with longer following distances - and choose more powerful cars as I think that makes it easier to leave space knowing that when you need to overtake it doesn't take half an hour to get to the back of the car in front let alone past it!

however I don't think it is quite this simple...
you should also have the person in front's reaction time in addition...
and an advanced driver should possibly be reacting even before the driver in front in most cases... in which case arguably (controversial here!) if your reaction time is fast and your brakes are good, you should have no problem driving 1 cm from their bumper

not disagreeing that more space is good - just that I think the maths is more complex

Alasdair

[Sru_1980]

I was just considering things from a possibility of the tailgater's perspective and what incitement to impatience that motorist may experience during those times when someone will not budge from the inside lane for miles ie what causes them to tailgate?

Uh..... sorry, forgive me if I'm being a bit dense, but how can one "hog" the inside lane of a motorway or dual carriageway? Surely the onus is on the driver(s) behind to move out to lane 2 or 3 if they're that keen to pass?

[TheInsanity1234]

Stuff that's true.
Without wanting to divert this important point too much, this is why I have always disagreed with the pre-overtaking 'following' distance/ position as taught to associates by IAM/RoADAR, as it is a clear breach of 'the two-second rule' and I ain't no fool. (looks for MR T emoji)

On the rare occasion I've overtaken, I've never had a problem with leaving a 2 second gap, right up to the moment the overtake is on, at which point I will start indicating right (of course, after checking my mirrors! ) and accelerating, all while moving smoothly over to the offside. (That's come out a little garbled, but I hope it makes sense?)

[waremark]

Stuff that's true.
Without wanting to divert this important point too much, this is why I have always disagreed with the pre-overtaking 'following' distance/ position as taught to associates by IAM/RoADAR, as it is a clear breach of 'the two-second rule' and I ain't no fool. (looks for MR T emoji)

On the rare occasion I've overtaken, I've never had a problem with leaving a 2 second gap, right up to the moment the overtake is on, at which point I will start indicating right (of course, after checking my mirrors! ) and accelerating, all while moving smoothly over to the offside. (That's come out a little garbled, but I hope it makes sense?)

A safe approach but not the only one. Have you read Roadcraft on overtaking?

Do you think that indicating as you start to move to the offside is helpful to any other road users?

[Kimosabe]

I think what I was referring to was a picture in my mind of a recurrent theme on a particular stretch of road that I often use. So yes to creating and maintaining safe following distances but... I'm not sure more road markings provide a workable solution for many drivers whose attitude towards anything outside of their bubble is to force it out of the way, especially as they're most likely looking at whatever is ahead of them as a target to deal with, so I guess this is where radar-braked cars hold a solution. Maybe not for the likes of us who work to control our states of mind while driving but certainly for people who find controlling their frustration in such situations to be beyond their limits of patience.

As for two chevron gaps being a suggested safe following distance, it probably goes without saying that unless the other road users we are directly interacting with follow the same rules, most often, unless driving a 'marked' vehicle with lights on the roof, a gap which is purposely left for safety is often taken to be an invitation to fill it with or without prior notice of intent. So I suppose this comes down to encouraging greater discipline and respect among road users but that is not what is happening. What is happening is road signs and markings. Better than Chevron markings would be question marks. Evidently chevrons confuse some people but is there a device which can display the distance or time from the car infront when traveling above 40mph? (I think I may have just invented something more for Satnavs to do. Must remember not to tell anyone )

Showing drivers the devastating outcomes which can occur as a result of following too closely, isn't that dissimilar to showing smokers pictures of lung cancer victims with the intention of scaring them into stopping smoking. As far as I recall, that policy did nothing to reduce the amount of smokers or the amounts they smoked, so the video interviews of our friends who cut victims from wreckage or who have to break that news to relatives doesn't really do the job, much as I hope it would. It appeals to us because we appreciate the message and agree with it but not to those who drive massive LWB 'sprinters' because they are working to unattainable delivery deadlines. (can't remember the last time I was cut up by a 'Berlingo' or 'Caddy')

While heading South on the M23/A23 yesterday, I noticed an electronic display showing '24 minutes to Brighton'. To me, that is taken to mean that it won't be too long before reduced speed limits, congestion, traffic lights and roundabouts and I felt encouraged to maintain my steady progress rather than to increase speed to get it over with. Indeed it took 24 minutes. To many others that sign seems to serve as a warning to hurry things up. What is it I read about most crashes occurring within a mile or two of the destination? So while motorways may well be our safest roads, how well do people manage their speed when 70 turns into 40, 30 and then 20? That's what i'd like to see more of a focus on. More graduated increases and decreases of speed limits prior to the end of A and M roads. If I had a pound for every time I've thought that

[TheInsanity1234]

Stuff that's true.
Without wanting to divert this important point too much, this is why I have always disagreed with the pre-overtaking 'following' distance/ position as taught to associates by IAM/RoADAR, as it is a clear breach of 'the two-second rule' and I ain't no fool. (looks for MR T emoji)

On the rare occasion I've overtaken, I've never had a problem with leaving a 2 second gap, right up to the moment the overtake is on, at which point I will start indicating right (of course, after checking my mirrors! ) and accelerating, all while moving smoothly over to the offside. (That's come out a little garbled, but I hope it makes sense?)

A safe approach but not the only one. Have you read Roadcraft on overtaking?

Do you think that indicating as you start to move to the offside is helpful to any other road users?

No, I haven't, actually! I formulated that generic plan from the occasional overtake and worked out what was the best from me.

I want to clarify I usually start indicating after checking the offside mirror, and while indicating, I check my blindspot, then the offside mirror again before moving out into the offside lane.

I've found that indicating is generally a useful way of encouraging people behind me to hold back a moment while I move out to overtake, as I've had cases of people moving out and blocking an overtake I was about to take. The other thing it does is inform the overtakee that they're about to be passed, which kind of protects against them making sudden movements.

Of course, I need to practice overtaking much more...

Perhaps on a driving day in Berkshire... *hint hint*

[Sru_1980]

Perhaps on a driving day in Berkshire... *hint hint*

Would get my vote - I love the roads around West Berkshire

[waremark]

Do you think that indicating as you start to move to the offside is helpful to any other road users?

I want to clarify I usually start indicating after checking the offside mirror, and while indicating, I check my blindspot, then the offside mirror again before moving out into the offside lane.

I've found that indicating is generally a useful way of encouraging people behind me to hold back a moment while I move out to overtake, as I've had cases of people moving out and blocking an overtake I was about to take. The other thing it does is inform the overtakee that they're about to be passed, which kind of protects against them making sudden movements

I like your reply about indicating. What I was getting at is that if indicating is to be useful there has to be time for reaction to it before you manoeuvre. Actually, I don't believe that the overtaking target in front of you is at all likely to notice your indicator in his mirror but it may be useful for the person behind, as you say.

[Silk]

Do you think that indicating as you start to move to the offside is helpful to any other road users?

I want to clarify I usually start indicating after checking the offside mirror, and while indicating, I check my blindspot, then the offside mirror again before moving out into the offside lane.

I've found that indicating is generally a useful way of encouraging people behind me to hold back a moment while I move out to overtake, as I've had cases of people moving out and blocking an overtake I was about to take. The other thing it does is inform the overtakee that they're about to be passed, which kind of protects against them making sudden movements

I like your reply about indicating. What I was getting at is that if indicating is to be useful there has to be time for reaction to it before you manoeuvre. Actually, I don't believe that the overtaking target in front of you is at all likely to notice your indicator in his mirror but it may be useful for the person behind, as you say.

I tend to default to not indicating unless I can see a good reason to indicate. In practice, this means I almost never indicate to overtake [on single carriageway roads]. The problem with indicating is you end up committing yourself before you've gone past the absolutely sure it's safe stage. I'm not sure it's a good idea hoping that another road user will respond to your indicator as you wish them too - if you're in that situation, the overtake probably isn't on.