Middle lane "hogging" .... Again

[revian]

In the papers (I usually only read them on line as it saves me washing my hands so often ))
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/columnists/alex-robbins/middle-lane-hogging-law/

How balanced or not do you think this is? I've been annoyed by it on occasion but is it worth specific police time? Wouldn't a pull over (not a jumper) and a telling off suffice? I think it's mostly poor drivers not deliberate hoggers. Or is it?

Ian

[jont]

He lost me at "More specifically, I think there’s a real danger here that driving without due care and attention is increasingly used as a catch-all to deal with all the offences for which the powers that be haven’t yet bothered to come up with specific conviction codes."

I think he's got it arse about face. DWDCA is what most offences should be, only it's harder to prove and until recently required court time, so instead an ever growing number of "point" offences (such as speeding, mobile phone use etc) were introduced which are easier to prove and you could give an FPN for.

Most drivers are spatially lazy - they would rather sit where they are, even if they have to change speed, than maintain speed but have to change position (it's highlighted if you use cruise control a lot). Where do you draw the line between lazy and deliberate hogging?

Some 2 lane derestricted autobahn driving in Germany recently highlighted just how crap UK lane discipline is in comparison.

[revian]

It's impossible (as you imply) to tell if it's deliberate or just pants driving. I'm unconvinced it's worthy of adding yet another 'law' to the plethora of the current portfolio.

The answer to most things seems to be 'create a law/offence/fine/flogging/hanging' etc. The mind police are getting their practice in ready for the next step.

Perhaps today is just a grumpy old man day

Ian

[TheInsanity1234]

Most drivers are spatially lazy - they would rather sit where they are, even if they have to change speed, than maintain speed but have to change position (it's highlighted if you use cruise control a lot). Where do you draw the line between lazy and deliberate hogging?

My parents frequently remain in Lane 2 when they're driving on the motorway. There has to be approximately a mile of empty L1 (hyperbole, before any of youse start quoting HC at me ) before my father will pull into L1. The mother is much more keen to change lanes, but when it's busy she does have a tendency to just hang out in L2.

They don't consider what they're doing as lane hogging, as they do often overtake lorries in L1, it's just the large gaps in between the lorries that they won't pull into. The other thing that I find amusing is, I do try to maintain good lane discipline, and tend to drive in L1, but does mean I change lanes fairly often to overtake lorries etc, and my parents have moaned at me for changing lanes so often...

But yeah, I don't really care if the person in L2 sitting there actually is doing about 70-75 (so kind of keeping up with average traffic flow) I only really consider it "lane hogging" when they sit there doing 60 or below, thus causing a fair few people to have to switch lanes to overtake etc.

However, ironically, in the real world, the drivers who sit in L2 driving at about 70-75 tend to be the most irritating for me, as I nearly always will be driving up behind them marginally faster on CC, so it's either a case of cancelling CC, and then set CC to a speed matching theirs, and practice proper lane discipline without needing to overtake them OR I go ahead and overtake them, then get stuck alongside them, so I have to put my foot down and increase my speed to get past.

That's why I've given up on CC now, and prefer to use my right foot.

[martine]

The large fine is I presume because the driver contested it (by going to court) rather than accepting the fixed penalty? The change in the law last year was to allow certain offences to be fixed including middle-lane hogging and tailgating.

Personally I think the majority of MLHs know it's wrong but are selfish enough not to care. I've also spoken to some who say 'it's safer to stay in the middle lane'

[Garrison]

Personally I think the majority of MLHs know it's wrong but are selfish enough not to care.

British mentality. Worse in America. I don't know if I am racist or not, but I believe the "think only of myself" is ingrained in these races.

Personally, I like the discipline of the German society. I was once with a German colleague in Canary Wharf and we just stood there at the traffic light outside One Canada Square. There was no car come at all for over a minute while waiting for the green man to turn green !!!

[akirk]

Personally, I like the discipline of the German society. I was once with a German colleague in Canary Wharf and we just stood there at the traffic light outside One Canada Square. There was no car come at all for over a minute while waiting for the green man to turn green !!!

there are also other ways of describing that - sensible and efficient are not amongst them! (and I am part German!) - The problem with that approach is the belief that only in order / discipline / structure do things work, it depersonalises society - the British system is based on flexibility, intelligence, and common sense - only ruined when greed and selfishness come into the equation - better to remove those than create a sterile society

Alasdair

[jonquirk]

Personally, I like the discipline of the German society. I was once with a German colleague in Canary Wharf and we just stood there at the traffic light outside One Canada Square. There was no car come at all for over a minute while waiting for the green man to turn green !!!

there are also other ways of describing that - sensible and efficient are not amongst them! (and I am part German!) - The problem with that approach is the belief that only in order / discipline / structure do things work, it depersonalises society - the British system is based on flexibility, intelligence, and common sense - only ruined when greed and selfishness come into the equation - better to remove those than create a sterile society

Alasdair

I have heard of this behaviour before; the explanation proffered was that the signals were obeyed lest a child see them being jumped and think it was ok to do so as well, without necessarily having the skill to judge whether it was safe, or not.

[akirk]

Personally, I like the discipline of the German society. I was once with a German colleague in Canary Wharf and we just stood there at the traffic light outside One Canada Square. There was no car come at all for over a minute while waiting for the green man to turn green !!!

there are also other ways of describing that - sensible and efficient are not amongst them! (and I am part German!) - The problem with that approach is the belief that only in order / discipline / structure do things work, it depersonalises society - the British system is based on flexibility, intelligence, and common sense - only ruined when greed and selfishness come into the equation - better to remove those than create a sterile society

Alasdair

I have heard of this behaviour before; the explanation proffered was that the signals were obeyed lest a child see them being jumped and think it was ok to do so as well, without necessarily having the skill to judge whether it was safe, or not.

That though opens up a different debate - how you parent...
Why would you let a child make that decision for themselves until they are old enough / mature enough to either know the correct way of doing something / or have the perception and understanding to know how to judge safety (i.e. cross on the red light but with no cars coming) / have the perception and understanding to realise that they need to do as they were trained and taught even though others might do differently...

until they have that maturity, why would you let them make any such decision?

bringing up children means that you start with things in black and white (don't touch the fire / stove - it is hot; don't touch xyz it is valuable; etc.) but as they get older you introduce them to a more grey-scale way of thinking - understanding that the apparent black & white statement breaks down into smaller black and white (or overall grey) - so 'don't touch the stove it is hot' becomes think about the stove, have we just been cooking, is it hot - don't touch it when it is hot, it is fine the rest of the time...

i.e. you increase subtleties in decision making... to suggest that adults should be rigid and lacking in thinking just in case a child sees them and randomly copies them is a horrendous way to act, it removes all responsibility from parents and society to bring up children correctly, why should we dumb down in order to cope with a frankly unlikely issue, which were it to happen is the responsibility of the parents, not of a random stranger a child might spot doing something which is safe for an adult and not for a child...

Alasdair

[revian]

I'm only annoyed (?) if it's lane blocking. If there's no traffic behind I can't see a problem. Nothing's being 'hogged'

But I think I'm back in favour with a big fine if your parents TheInsanity1234 are in my way

Ian

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I was once with a German colleague in Canary Wharf and we just stood there
at the traffic light outside One Canada Square. There was no car come at all for over a minute while waiting for the green man to turn green !!!

That'll be because in many European countries, including Germany, you can get fined for crossing the road while the pedestrian crossing is on red.

According to some other hearsay I found - either €5 or €10 in Germany, €45 in Holland, and so on... Instils discipline

And of course, the same applies in the U.S.

[fungus]

I was once with a German colleague in Canary Wharf and we just stood there
at the traffic light outside One Canada Square. There was no car come at all for over a minute while waiting for the green man to turn green !!!

That'll be because in many European countries, including Germany, you can get fined for crossing the road while the pedestrian crossing is on red.

According to some other hearsay I found - either €5 or €10 in Germany, €45 in Holland, and so on... Instils discipline

And of course, the same applies in the U.S.

Yes, that's correct.

When my wife and I were in Germany three years ago, we both cossed the road on a red pedestrian light as there was absolutely nothing in sight. The Germans just stood there waiting for the light to change. I mentioned this to our travel rep. She warned us that we could be arrested for crossing the road on a red pedestrian light.

[Pontoneer]

Personally, I like the discipline of the German society. I was once with a German colleague in Canary Wharf and we just stood there at the traffic light outside One Canada Square. There was no car come at all for over a minute while waiting for the green man to turn green !!!

That reminds me of a time we were on holiday in Berlin a number of years ago , walking back to our hotel at about 1am , through completely deserted streets , I started to cross - and a policeman appeared out of the shadows to give me a telling off for not waiting for the green man ! Once he discovered were were Scots on holiday , all was well and we were waved on our way .

Thing was I knew how the German way is regarding lights etc and always abide by them during daytime or when traffic is about .... but on completely empty streets !!!