Oscarmark - discussion of police/IAM/ROSPA standards

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Postby playtent » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:28 pm


Horse wrote:
hir wrote: The standard required to achieve an IAM Masters distinction is lower than that required to achieve a police Advanced Ticket [ignoring the higher speeds aspect of the drive]



Some time ago, a RoSPA bike examiner said that he'd give a 'gold' on the basis that, from a following bike and with the candidate not riding using exemptions, he wouldn't be able to tell whether it was a police advanced rider or not.

Or words to that effect.


And that's a nice thing to hear if you've spent your own money and time learning to ride better as it gives you a benchmark that they believe they've reached, encouraging them to continue their journey.

The exemptions are the crucial point. Riding along at 60 mph in the flow of traffic getting your positioning correct without any concern for maximum progress is far less complex than having to overtake every vehicle on the road when the opportunity presents, riding the bike to near its maximum performance all of the time. Doing it hour after hour whilst an instructor follows you for 8 weeks solid, no taking it easy regardless of weather, no sitting back and not taking that overtake because I'm tired.
My friend is a bike instructor and he's out in all weathers with students themselves regularly chucking the course in due to the pace. He's had an advanced course recently where one student fell off and broke his wrist and the other 2 jacked it due to the speeds, realising that they weren't capable, he ended up with no students to instruct.

In the speed limits they practice their blue light running until they hit the open roads and then it's blue lights off and on the pace all the time. Utilising the bikes performance ALL the time, not just until they come up behind a car doing the speed limit or reach 60mph. Every corner is ridden at the maximum safe speed for that corner regardless of it been a 40mph or a 130mph bend.

The riding that would be done on any civilian test would be so vastly different from that on an advanced Police bike test that comparisons are not possible. That's not to say that a Gold standard is not exceptionally good but it just cant be compared due to reasons stated.
playtent
 

Postby waremark » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:38 pm


playtent wrote:The 24V Senator managed 22.7s 0-100mph and 139mph but I remember the elation when a driver I was with managed to get 130mph on the motorway with the light bar dragging us back.

A BMW 535d on the other hand is restricted to 155mph and hits a 100mph in 13.1s.

10 seconds faster to a 100mph means that you'd have the capability to be approaching at almost twice the speed in a 535 than you would have in the trusty old Senator.

What do you think of the desirability or appropriateness of cars like my son's which gets to 100 in a spot over 6 seconds? What skills do you need to drive such machines?
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Postby playtent » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:53 pm


waremark wrote:
playtent wrote:The 24V Senator managed 22.7s 0-100mph and 139mph but I remember the elation when a driver I was with managed to get 130mph on the motorway with the light bar dragging us back.

A BMW 535d on the other hand is restricted to 155mph and hits a 100mph in 13.1s.

10 seconds faster to a 100mph means that you'd have the capability to be approaching at almost twice the speed in a 535 than you would have in the trusty old Senator.

What do you think of the desirability or appropriateness of cars like my son's which gets to 100 in a spot over 6 seconds? What skills do you need to drive such machines?


Same as any other machine as the speed limits 60mph. If in a world of no speed limits, bloody quick reactions, exceptional vision and precise car control. My bike does it in 6 seconds and I'm just too busy just hanging on... :shock:
playtent
 

Postby akirk » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:20 am


playtent wrote:
Horse wrote:
hir wrote: The standard required to achieve an IAM Masters distinction is lower than that required to achieve a police Advanced Ticket [ignoring the higher speeds aspect of the drive]



Some time ago, a RoSPA bike examiner said that he'd give a 'gold' on the basis that, from a following bike and with the candidate not riding using exemptions, he wouldn't be able to tell whether it was a police advanced rider or not.

Or words to that effect.


And that's a nice thing to hear if you've spent your own money and time learning to ride better as it gives you a benchmark that they believe they've reached, encouraging them to continue their journey.

The exemptions are the crucial point. Riding along at 60 mph in the flow of traffic getting your positioning correct without any concern for maximum progress is far less complex than having to overtake every vehicle on the road when the opportunity presents, riding the bike to near its maximum performance all of the time. Doing it hour after hour whilst an instructor follows you for 8 weeks solid, no taking it easy regardless of weather, no sitting back and not taking that overtake because I'm tired.
My friend is a bike instructor and he's out in all weathers with students themselves regularly chucking the course in due to the pace. He's had an advanced course recently where one student fell off and broke his wrist and the other 2 jacked it due to the speeds, realising that they weren't capable, he ended up with no students to instruct.

In the speed limits they practice their blue light running until they hit the open roads and then it's blue lights off and on the pace all the time. Utilising the bikes performance ALL the time, not just until they come up behind a car doing the speed limit or reach 60mph. Every corner is ridden at the maximum safe speed for that corner regardless of it been a 40mph or a 130mph bend.

The riding that would be done on any civilian test would be so vastly different from that on an advanced Police bike test that comparisons are not possible. That's not to say that a Gold standard is not exceptionally good but it just cant be compared due to reasons stated.


That is really interesting, and I appreciate that pace forces mistakes / requires more focus / etc. - but if you take that out of the equation for the moment, is that the only differentiator? I have seen some police drivers who while undoubtedly competent would scare the life out of me and some civilian drivers who (if legal ;)) could undoubtedly maintain that pace with considerable skill etc.

I suspect that an 8 week course is make or break - by the end of it, the rider / driver is undoubtedly honed beautifully - but 2 years later? or even a month later, does the average police driver maintain such a high level of focus? I presume that you need the course to take you beyond what is neccesary day to day so that when you drop off a bit you are stil at the right level?

Alasdair
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Postby Oscarmark » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:55 am


Advanced driving is about reading the road ahead, adapting your position, pace and gear to cope with hazards as you see them developing. For me it is about mitigating risk, ultimately the advanced driver has MORE time to react. Always being able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear...

When driving a high powered police car in an emergency situation the hazards are amplified and the potential risks multiply. Any fool can drive fast, I remember on a track session with a former Formula 1 driver, Peter Gethin at Goodwood in the early 90's. He was driving a Volvo 850R track car at considerable pace around the track where his race school was. He knew every imperfection on the track and was equally familiar with the car. Naturally he put in very fast laps. Then I had a go... From memory he put in a 1 minute 30 and I did a 1 minute 42. 12 seconds off the pace!! He knew I was a Police Class 1 and had a little dig.... I said to him, "Peter, when I do my work and have to push a car through Central London, I have to contend with cars coming the other way and pedestrians, you don't" He acknowledged that that may present certain difficulties.

Another point I would like to make, drivers of emergency vehicles put their own driving licences on the line when using exemptions. Your driving is scrutinised at every level, CCTV, in Car Camera, Mobile Data Terminal not to mention the 'Black Box' or IDR..... If you are involved in an incident, then it is your licence on the line....

Do I miss it? no not really, I remember doing some long blue light runs, where you arrive safely at your destination absolutely exhausted!
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Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:34 am


StressedDave wrote:I'd add 'restraint' and 'plenty of practice' to that list. There's plenty of macho bravado, both in civilian driving as well as Police. There's level of self-belief that training is sufficient to overcome a sudden massive hike in performance. There's also a litany of accidents when Police officers moving such vehicles to a place of safety/storage have binned something rather expensive. It may explain why all Police forces now hook stuff away. Especially since at least one force I know of self-insures.


100% agreed.
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Postby Oscarmark » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:13 am


Skidmarks eh? they bring back memories of Chalk Guns.... The howl of a V8 roaring up a closed road, the explosion of the chalk gun, then the screech of rubber on tarmac!!

I spent my time South West, TDV (Surbiton) 1988 to 1995, the TDT (Hampton) to 2001.
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Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:49 am


StressedDave wrote:
For those wondering what the hell we are talking about: when a vehicle left skidmarks, you needed to measure the coefficient of friction for a locked tyre on the road. This involved suction cupping a steel rod (at the end of which was a brass barrel containing an industrial detonator. You rammed the end of a bit of chalk into the bottom of the detonator and connected a battery box, via a pressure pad switch over the top of the brake pedal, to the 'gun'.

You then drove a Police car (with the ABS switched off) with a calibrated speedo (checked twice a day if the driver checks were done properly) along the road at 30 mph and then stamped (and I mean stamped - I know of at least one occasion when the pedal broke off during the test) on the brake pedal to lock up all four wheels. The detonator fired and banged the chalk into the road surface. You then measured the distance from the chalk to the chalk gun and calculated the coefficient of friction from that. Way more fun than sticking an orange box in the car and doing the same test. The Met lost around two boxes a year by sticking them on the roof of a car and driving off without remembering they were there. I suggested putting magnets on the base. No idea if they did so.


It was 2001 and a Lamborghini had lost control on a dual carriageway crossing the grass and hitting a BMW flipping it over. The BMW occupants were fine but not the Lamborghini driver. It's pitch black and I'm standing in the pouring rain with my dog on the lead whilst my Astra van is going up and down the road skid testing with my so called Traffic mate. All the traffic cars had ABS so my trusty R reg 1.7d didn't.
To this day I'm not sure he had to do it 12 times. :?
Then I had to get back in it, soaking wet and drive at 30mph whilst he pointed a speed gun at me.
Those were the days!
playtent
 

Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:33 pm


akirk wrote:
That is really interesting, and I appreciate that pace forces mistakes / requires more focus / etc. - but if you take that out of the equation for the moment, is that the only differentiator? I have seen some police drivers who while undoubtedly competent would scare the life out of me and some civilian drivers who (if legal ;)) could undoubtedly maintain that pace with considerable skill etc.

I suspect that an 8 week course is make or break - by the end of it, the rider / driver is undoubtedly honed beautifully - but 2 years later? or even a month later, does the average police driver maintain such a high level of focus? I presume that you need the course to take you beyond what is neccesary day to day so that when you drop off a bit you are stil at the right level?

Alasdair


My friend the instructor on his Advanced car course got a 2 whilst on the bikes he got a 1. He went back for a refresher a good few years later and got a 1 in the cars aswell. It was a prerequisite then to be a driving instructor, you had to be a 1.

Driving is a tool of the job. Most join the Police because they want to be a police officer, not an advanced driver.
We do self defence but we're not all Karate enthusiasts, we're not all Ham radio enthusiasts either, just because we get to use state of the art radio equipment.
So to assume any officer is going to be enthusiastic about driving or riding is false. Some of course will be and their driving will improve. For me enthusiasm and skill are closely related because the more you practice your skill level will increase.

On my department of circa 70 advanced drivers, there are 3 x 1's. There are plenty of, could have been if it wasn't raining, or I got 84% so I was nearly a 1, but true 1's, there are 3. Driving seems at times to be our main function. We do more driving than anyone else in the Force. We cover greater distances on blue lights than anyone. 90% of our calls are blue light. 200 miles in a night shift is not unusual. Vehicles averaging 85000 miles a year is common. So you would think that there would be enthusiasm for driving, but there isn't.
The 3 1's are the type who would just go out for a drive for the sake of it. Practice in their downtime, seeking out roads for that purpose whilst at work. Of those 3, one is now an ADI with a view to doing it full time when he retires, the other wants to be a driving instructor when he reaches his twilight years and the third is a member on here.

If this forum was Police only, they'd be hardly any members, whilst if the regular members here were all police officers, they'd either be instructors or aspiring to be one.

Enthusiasm doesn't come because some one has done an advanced driving course at work, your either interested, or your not, and most aren't.

Now to you guys that's a crying shame because you have the enthusiasm for driving. But driving is not the job, Policing is the job.

So in answer, of course officers get worse when the leave the test because they don't practice and slide back to their old ways. The day you come off your course will be for most officers the peak of their driving or riding ability. For some enthusiasts, they will improve and return as better drivers, but for the majority they won't.

Let's put it into context. If a driver can have 3 observed runs with an non instructor, read roadcraft a few times and watch some videos with some self practice can get an IAM FIRST compared to a even a standard Police driving course of circa 50hrs training with an instructor 1-1, aswell as another 100hrs observing the other 2 students, how can they possibly be of a similar standard?

Then add on the Advanced Police course of another 50 hrs 1-1 with a qualified instructor, all the practice in between the Standard course and the Advanced, observing the other 2 students for a further 100hrs of their instruction unless their on bikes in which case they have to keep up.

So by the end the student has had a minimum of 100hrs 1-1 with another 200hrs observing other students drives and instruction. We all know the value of watching others drive, especially if their having professional instruction at the time.

Enthusiasm can make up for some of it, but unless your a driving God then how can 3 hours guidance match 50 or even 100 hours of 1-1 professional training?
Last edited by playtent on Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
playtent
 

Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:37 pm


StressedDave wrote:
If he'd done it at speeds up to around 90 mph, I could understand it BTDTGTTACU (Been there, don't that, got the t-shirt, and change underwear). At those speeds you can get enough heat in the contact patch over time to boil off the water and measure the underlying friction underneath. Looks really, really cool, but the unfortunate car/van then has to drive on the world's largest flat spot and you need to look closely at the data to get the data out.

When seriously doing it we used to carry a spare set of tyres to change into after the event.


I guess he was doing about 70 when he was skidding but I wasn't in the van. I might have been speed gunned at 70, I just can't remember. I'd hope he's no longer an idiot as he's still doing it now 15 years later :P
playtent
 

Postby akirk » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:38 pm


playtent wrote:
akirk wrote:
That is really interesting, and I appreciate that pace forces mistakes / requires more focus / etc. - but if you take that out of the equation for the moment, is that the only differentiator? I have seen some police drivers who while undoubtedly competent would scare the life out of me and some civilian drivers who (if legal ;)) could undoubtedly maintain that pace with considerable skill etc.

I suspect that an 8 week course is make or break - by the end of it, the rider / driver is undoubtedly honed beautifully - but 2 years later? or even a month later, does the average police driver maintain such a high level of focus? I presume that you need the course to take you beyond what is neccesary day to day so that when you drop off a bit you are stil at the right level?

Alasdair


Lots of really good stuff here... removed for brevity

So by the end the student has had a minimum of 100hrs 1-1 with another 200hrs observing other students drives and instruction. We all know the value of watching others drive, especially if their having professional instruction at the time.

Enthusiasm can make up for some of it, but unless your a driving God then how can 3 hours guidance match 50 or even 100 hours of 1-1 professional training?


Some really good points there - thank you for sharing that...

I suppose part of my question (badly worded!) was whether in a 'pure AD' concept there are skills that aren't taught on the Police courses (because perhaps not needed) - we know there are skills such as the speed element that are not taught on civilian courses, or not in the same way - I was wondering whether the same was true in reverse?

the couple that occurred to me from your narrative were:
- smoothness
- car sympathy

not saying that they aren't taught at all - e.g. smoothness is naturally a precursor / linked to balance and speed etc. - but that they might be taught differently - where a civilian course might place smoothness / sympathy higher on the agenda, ultimately in the police there is a job to do and if that requires less smoothness / sympathy, then so be it :)

does that make sense?!

Alasdair
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Postby TripleS » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:40 pm


waremark wrote:
playtent wrote:The 24V Senator managed 22.7s 0-100mph and 139mph but I remember the elation when a driver I was with managed to get 130mph on the motorway with the light bar dragging us back.

A BMW 535d on the other hand is restricted to 155mph and hits a 100mph in 13.1s.

10 seconds faster to a 100mph means that you'd have the capability to be approaching at almost twice the speed in a 535 than you would have in the trusty old Senator.

What do you think of the desirability or appropriateness of cars like my son's which gets to 100 in a spot over 6 seconds? What skills do you need to drive such machines?


Has the edge gone off it already? IIRC the 0-100 time previously quoted was 5.7 seconds. 8)

BTW, I can't help wondering what level of insurance premium would be charged to a relative youngster with such a car....

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:25 pm


akirk wrote:
the couple that occurred to me from your narrative were:
- smoothness
- car sympathy

not saying that they aren't taught at all - e.g. smoothness is naturally a precursor / linked to balance and speed etc. - but that they might be taught differently - where a civilian course might place smoothness / sympathy higher on the agenda, ultimately in the police there is a job to do and if that requires less smoothness / sympathy, then so be it :)

does that make sense?!

Alasdair


I think people confuse car sympathy with loving their car. Do we red line it regularly, then the answer is no ,but did we use 90% of the available performance 90% of the time then yes we did. You would accelerate all the way to a 30mph limit from a NSL and then brake hard and smoothly going through at 30. In my own car I would ease off prior rather than stand the car on its nose. Mechanical sympathy, no, but fuel economy and can't be bothered, yes.

Smoothness was never compromised for speed. Some could not drive as fast as others without compromising that smoothness and ending up with a harsh drive. My instructors drive was like silk at speeds you would never know you were travelling. That was the aim for me, speed with smoothness. I can only talk about my instructor but if you were butter smooth but only doing 6/10's then you would not pass. If you were ragged and doing 8/10's you would not pass. The goal was smooth at 8/10's.

To you, accelerating upto a 30mph limit, braking smoothly from 70mph and then progressing to standing the vehicle on its nose and then smoothly back off the brakes at the correct point and speed might not corespondend with your impression of smooth, but the goal was to always be smooth whilst making progress but remaining safe.

The instructor was always saying, that's another whiplash claim going in, even when I was changing gear initially as it lacked finesse. I was marked down numerous times for changing gear too quickly and compromising the smoothness.

At lot revolves around smoothness, because the smoother you are, the better control you have of the vehicle and when your driving that vehicle/bike at high speed, a harsh turn in, or lack of progressive braking can cause an incident.

I'm sure Von can give far me detail about the goals of the advanced driving course than I can, but I would say smoothness is pretty much key to everything else. We worked on smoothness and the speed came, we never worked on speed.
Last edited by playtent on Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.
playtent
 

Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:26 pm


TripleS wrote:
waremark wrote:
playtent wrote:The 24V Senator managed 22.7s 0-100mph and 139mph but I remember the elation when a driver I was with managed to get 130mph on the motorway with the light bar dragging us back.

A BMW 535d on the other hand is restricted to 155mph and hits a 100mph in 13.1s.

10 seconds faster to a 100mph means that you'd have the capability to be approaching at almost twice the speed in a 535 than you would have in the trusty old Senator.

What do you think of the desirability or appropriateness of cars like my son's which gets to 100 in a spot over 6 seconds? What skills do you need to drive such machines?


Has the edge gone off it already? IIRC the 0-100 time previously quoted was 5.7 seconds. 8)

BTW, I can't help wondering what level of insurance premium would be charged to a relative youngster with such a car....

Best wishes all,
Dave.


What vehicle has he got, a Westfield?
playtent
 

Postby akirk » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:50 pm


thank you - very interesting...

I am happy that you can be smooth with extreme peaks - though some think that smoothness means a more treacle like drive :) sounds fascinating

Alasdair
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