Oscarmark - discussion of police/IAM/ROSPA standards

[Horse]

Welcome! 30 years, eh?

That spans blue book to new book, and changes to training and driving. Care to fill some gaps our knowledge (well, mine ) and reflect on those changes?

[Oscarmark]

In answer to the question about F1rst and Gold... I know within 10 minutes of an IAM test what the result will be, generally. A F1rst is a flawless drive, a polished drive. If I see a hazard developing and think, I would be doing this right now and then associate does it. There are not many people that can hold it together for the whole test and produce the perfect drive.

A ROSPA test has many more areas to grade, 31 in total with up to 19 different options. A driver can have a few flaws but still produce a GOLD.

Hope that helps?

[Oscarmark]

To put this into context, both IAM and ROSPA have a corporate national standard, but it would be naive to think that a test completed in Somerset by one examiner will be identical to the same test in Hertfirdshire by another. The marking guidelines are the same but there will be differences.
I gave a talk to an IAM Group last week where an associate asked, "Can every driver obtain a F1rst?" Of course they can't, just as not every driver can pass the IAM test.
I probably do 2 x ROSPA tests for every 1 IAM, so I guess the proportions are relevant. The point I am trying to make, from my perspective, it is 'easier' for an Examiner to award a Gold pass because of the way the guidelines are constructed. I don't think it is 'healthy' to make direct comparisons. Each test stands on it's own merits. I find it difficult to understand how a F1rst register driver is not up to Gold at ROSPA.
At this talk the other evening a member came up to me in the break and asked if I had passed the Masters. I have not, he then said by definition then I 'out qualify you'. It is my Class 1 Advanced qualification that provides me with the ability to perform the role of examiner. He was under the impression that a Masters was equivalent of my Class 1. I have heard senior examiners say that a Masters is like a police qualification, but within the speed limits... That is a fair analogy. When I did my Police Advanced Course it was over 6 weeks with check tests along the way culminating in a 90 minute 2 part test including a pursuit with FULL commentary throughout. Then there were 3 yearly assessments.
I am sorry if this 'muddies' the waters for members, but anyone who passes either ROSPA or IAM at any level deserves praise, it is not something you have to do (there are some exceptions) but by passing you have shown that your driving ability is 'head and shoulder' above that of the ambient public.

[fengpo]

Thanks for the insight Mark, interesting topic to discuss.

[akirk]

To put this into context, both IAM and ROSPA have a corporate national standard, but it would be naive to think that a test completed in Somerset by one examiner will be identical to the same test in Hertfirdshire by another. The marking guidelines are the same but there will be differences.
I gave a talk to an IAM Group last week where an associate asked, "Can every driver obtain a F1rst?" Of course they can't, just as not every driver can pass the IAM test.
I probably do 2 x ROSPA tests for every 1 IAM, so I guess the proportions are relevant. The point I am trying to make, from my perspective, it is 'easier' for an Examiner to award a Gold pass because of the way the guidelines are constructed. I don't think it is 'healthy' to make direct comparisons. Each test stands on it's own merits. I find it difficult to understand how a F1rst register driver is not up to Gold at ROSPA.
At this talk the other evening a member came up to me in the break and asked if I had passed the Masters. I have not, he then said by definition then I 'out qualify you'. It is my Class 1 Advanced qualification that provides me with the ability to perform the role of examiner. He was under the impression that a Masters was equivalent of my Class 1. I have heard senior examiners say that a Masters is like a police qualification, but within the speed limits... That is a fair analogy. When I did my Police Advanced Course it was over 6 weeks with check tests along the way culminating in a 90 minute 2 part test including a pursuit with FULL commentary throughout. Then there were 3 yearly assessments.
I am sorry if this 'muddies' the waters for members, but anyone who passes either ROSPA or IAM at any level deserves praise, it is not something you have to do (there are some exceptions) but by passing you have shown that your driving ability is 'head and shoulder' above that of the ambient public.

well put!

I think it is a shame when people focus so strongly on it as a hierarchy - and by implication being better than one another - the more you understand AD, the more you realise the richness of it and the depth of learning that is possible and the more the qualifications become simply a milestone or recognition of progress - not a ranking of ability

Alasdair

[Oscarmark]

During my latter years service I trained as a Police Driving Assessor. Within the Met there are several levels of driver starting at Basic... These are officers who have held a driving licence for 3 years, have passed a theory test based on Highway Code and Driver a Policy. Then you have Response Drivers who have completed a 2 week course including Blues and Twos but in lesser powered cars. They are not authorised to take part in pursuits beyond initial stage, but do carry exemptions, Level 2 Advanced and Level 1 Advanced.... These have completed further training and can drive higher powered cars, but only the latter can engage in what is known as tactical phase pursuit. As a driving assessor I was trained to assess the driver according to their respective training. So if we were driving normally through regulated speed limits, my expectation of the drive given was based on the drivers qualification... If that makes sense?

I only draw a difference between police advanced driving and normal advanced driving because the police drivers, certainly at advanced level gain experience driving at high speed ( where appropriate) I do not mean to sound rude, but driving a car at twice the National Speed Limit safely requires very specific skill set.

[Oscarmark]

Thank you....

[Horse]

While I quite understand the reasons for splitting off this thread, may I point out that my questions (as in the first post) had nothing [directly] to do with IAM or RoSPa.

[fengpo]

If I may ask a question Mark, apologies if you feel like you're on Question Time. I see in an earlier post you was in the Met. I have completed the IAM at First, also looking at HPC now. Attended an half day with one of the course managers, also the young drivers day kindly put on by the guys and girls at the club. My drive with the course manager was under HPC entry level at present but I have potential to gain entry; in the course manager's opinion. I agree with the assessment 100%.

I also have a full day booked with Chris Gilbert at the start of September, hoping to cement my driving skills. Please feel free to share your thoughts with me? I really enjoy Ultimate Driving Craft DVD's, be good to learn pull push at a higher level and the other things I am sure I'll learn from the day.

All the best,

Conor

[Oscarmark]

Conor,
Chris Gilbert was an instructor at Hendon during my years of training... He is at the top of his game and has been very successful. He was my examiner on my PCV test! My advice is don't get hung up on F1rsts or Golds etc... Just do the best you can and above all enjoy it!

Good luck

Mark

[fengpo]

Thank you!

[EdgarF]

This has been a very interesting thread. I suspect another reason why Mark has given out fewer IAM FIRSTs than RoSPA Golds is that there are no compulsory re-tests in IAM, so many of the IAM candidates he sees are on their first and only test. Quite an achievement to gain FIRST first time around, do to speak. With RoSPA, many candidates will achieve a Bronze or Silver on their first one or two tests, but then should be better prepared on subsequent re-tests to achieve a Gold. Just a thought, but I do also take the point about the differences in criteria.

[playtent]

How many observed drives is usual prior to success at First level?
I thought I read Fengpo was told to put in after 2 hours?
What is the scale at between 2-10hrs?

Cheers

[Kimosabe]

How many observed drives is usual prior to success at First level?
I thought I read Fengpo was told to put in after 2 hours?
What is the scale at between 2-10hrs?

Cheers

I passed the IAM test at F1rst level, first time and I didn't take the RoSPA test because it was mostly repetition, partly going to be as irritating, due to there being a link between the operational needs even of a Police Standard driver and civilian driving and because if there's a Gold, i'm going to get it and nothing less.

I had about six to eight observed drives before putting in for the test, most of which was spent wondering what all the fuss was about, due a fairly bonkers observer and then wondering what all the fuss had been about, due to a fairly sane second observer who suggested I put in for my test straight away. My examiner couldn't have been a nicer guy.

edit: I also recently took an RoADAR 'Experienced Driver Assessment' and scored straight A's. The guy I did it with couldn't have been a nicer person and his abilities to share his knowledge made it all the more enjoyable. Don't know if that helps at all but it's worth mentioning that I consider what i've done outside of IAM/RoADAR, mostly with members of this forum, to be of greater value for real world driving, than anything I did with the IAM. There's no scale to measure that against because if I drove the way I generally do on a RoADAR test, i'd probably get a Silver because it doesn't exactly fit the template, with the possible exception of being coached and tested by people who aren't as bound as 'the book'. So what i'd say is that Roadcraft driving, which isn't Roadcraft in it's entirety, is just one facet of civilian AD.

[playtent]

I passed the IAM test at F1rst level, first time and I didn't take the RoSPA test because it was mostly repetition, partly going to be as irritating, due to there being a link between the operational needs even of a Police Standard driver and civilian driving and because if there's a Gold, i'm going to get it and nothing less.

I'm not sure I understand the above paragraph. Are you saying RoSPA are testing more along the lines of the Police than the IAM?