Oscarmark - discussion of police/IAM/ROSPA standards

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Postby Kimosabe » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:44 pm


playtent wrote:
Enthusiasm can make up for some of it, but unless your a driving God then how can 3 hours guidance match 50 or even 100 hours of 1-1 professional training?


Thank you. I've never held my F1rst or, when I get it, Gold-ish :wink: as that high a standard, when compared to Police AD and that's one reason for why i'd like to see civilian AD organisations use a different book to Roadcraft, for the average of 9 or so observed drives, that most associates probably have. They belong in their own context, even if there are crossovers and they also need to be separated to avoid the confusion that some ADers develop with regard to being similar to Police ADers. To me, it's a bit like saying that everything with four legs is a type of dog.

I received my R. Local book today and if that had been handed to me instead of Roadcraft when I first started AD about 3 years ago, i'd have had a far easier and less confused AD journey to this point. I doubt very much that i'll ever sit behind the wheel of a Police Car while on duty but if it's enthusiasm for driving and learning that they're after, i'd score highly. But am I capable of becoming a Police ADer? That question is always in the back of my mind and i'd surely like to find out.
A wise man once told me that "it depends". I sometimes agree.
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Postby Horse » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:54 pm


akirk wrote: . . . skills such as the speed element that are not taught on civilian courses


'Homework' :lol:
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Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:56 pm


StressedDave wrote:McLaren 650S, but probably close enough :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Shmee150 if you want to see him doing stuff... There's a video of waremark's motor in there too.


It was silly videos like this that made me swap my previous bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfLqa4vlmFI

I'd rather be doing that in the car than on the bike. Problem is getting the power down from standstill and keeping the front wheel down which you can see the rider in the video short shifting in the lower gears.
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Postby Oscarmark » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:53 pm


You ask if you could become a Police Advanced Driver, well, the only way to find out is to join up and do it. Most of the Police Advanced Driving Course involves high speed driving on public roads including Pursuit Management / Tactical Pursuit options. Exemptions are used including going through red lights.

If that is not an option just keep practising, honing your skills and remember.... when you think you have nothing else to learn, stop driving!
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Postby Kimosabe » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:12 pm


Oscarmark wrote:You ask if you could become a Police Advanced Driver, well, the only way to find out is to join up and do it. Most of the Police Advanced Driving Course involves high speed driving on public roads including Pursuit Management / Tactical Pursuit options. Exemptions are used including going through red lights.

If that is not an option just keep practising, honing your skills and remember.... when you think you have nothing else to learn, stop driving!


Damn interesting stuff. I've sat in the back of a Police AD training car for a day, at about the end of week 3 and found it very interesting. Not at all stuffy and linear, as some might have us believe. So rather than a bits n pieces approach to training, courses tend to suit me better.

The thing I often do is look for what's coming next; what next to aspire to do. I've already plotted a course toward HPC because that's about as far ahead as I can see right now and it's probably going to take years to get up to HPC Gold. Track driving has never taken my fancy. What interested you about AD and/or Police AD? Was it a natural progression or did you plan to do it from the start?
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Postby playtent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:23 pm


Kimosabe wrote: I doubt very much that i'll ever sit behind the wheel of a Police Car while on duty but if it's enthusiasm for driving and learning that they're after, i'd score highly. But am I capable of becoming a Police ADer? That question is always in the back of my mind and i'd surely like to find out.


I understand your curiosity. The fact is though that you don't need to be. Police driving is for a very specific purpose, it doesn't make it better for what you want or need.
There's little point in going to college and learning to type if you don't need to type.
You drive and learn as you go, seeking out guidance when you need it, for enjoyment and as a hobby. Police driving is not a hobby and it's a sad fact that the majority of Police drivers don't care how good they are, as long as they pass.

This is why HPC is a popular option. You get to drive with the gatekeepers who from what I understand are both ex Police instructors. People want to know if their good enough to be a Police advanced driver and that is the closest you will come to finding out.

I'm quite sure that 99% of people on this forum could successfully take and pass both the standard course followed by the advanced Police course.

Now if your asking without any Police training is there anyone who could sit an advanced Police test today and pass it, well there may be the odd person, but I imagine it to be unlikely.

We always say, train as you mean to be tested, so unless you've trained in that way, how could you be confident of a pass or even be expected to get a pass?

You also have to remember that the course is continual assessment. There are opportunities for the instructor to send you packing if their not happy with what their seeing.
So for a completely unknown person to roll up and spend an hour doing Police driving without the correct training by an appropriate instructor and to pass the test would be a very tall order indeed.
So why concern yourself with am I good enough to be a Police driver, concern yourself with, am I as good as I can be for what I intend to do?

Cheers
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Postby Horse » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:42 pm


Excellent thoughts; thank you for posting :)
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Postby hir » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:33 pm


Kimosabe wrote:The thing I often do is look for what's coming next; what next to aspire to do. I've already plotted a course toward HPC because that's about as far ahead as I can see right now and it's probably going to take years to get up to HPC Gold.


Have you considered IAM Masters?

Masters is of course conducted within the legal limits imposed upon us all, but you might find there is a bit more scope for free expression compared with your experience when preparing for the IAM entry test.
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Postby waremark » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:39 pm


StressedDave wrote:McLaren 650S, but probably close enough :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Shmee150 if you want to see him doing stuff... There's a video of waremark's motor in there too.

It is an amazing sports car - it manages to combine an excellent ride, a smooth automatic gearbox, full luxury equipment, and adequate refinement, with wonderful handling, lovely steering, and ludicrous performance. But I am not sure how satisfying it is on road, because you (well at least I) cannot sanely exploit its capability.

BTW, for those wanting to spend the price of a flat on a rather nice motor, it is for sale, shortly to be replaced by a slightly more powerful and 100 kg lighter 675 LT. I won't like that as much.

To drive it safely all you need is self-restraint. The more skill and practice you have, the more of its potential you may be able to exploit safely.

The insurance is surprisingly reasonable - I suspect that insurance stats must say that people who spend a vast amount of money on cars tend to look after them carefully.
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Postby Kimosabe » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:24 am


hir wrote:
Kimosabe wrote:The thing I often do is look for what's coming next; what next to aspire to do. I've already plotted a course toward HPC because that's about as far ahead as I can see right now and it's probably going to take years to get up to HPC Gold.


Have you considered IAM Masters?

Masters is of course conducted within the legal limits imposed upon us all, but you might find there is a bit more scope for free expression compared with your experience when preparing for the IAM entry test.


I hadn't given Masters much thought since first hearing about it a couple of years ago. As ever, I won't be happy unless I can achieve a distinction, so it's RoSPA gold (ish) first and once I'm happy with my standard ( the tests are for objectivity, not badge collecting), I'll go for Masters and HPC. I doubt that without much more practice and understanding, that I'll achieve much more than Silver first time around but I do place HPC grades on a very high pedestal, due to the few members I've met and others I've read replies from on this forum.
I think a spell chatting with someone who has passed IAM Masters might help me to get my head around what it's about but right now, I need to excel at RoSPA Gold before I go anywhere else. As Stresseddave reminded me earlier, it's better to invest in self improvement than changing bits of my MX5 and that was a well received reminder.

I'd hate to kill my passion by turning a hobby into a career but the potential of being a Police AD is certainly a very intriguing thought.
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Postby playtent » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:06 am


Kimosabe wrote:
I'd hate to kill my passion by turning a hobby into a career but the potential of being a Police AD is certainly a very intriguing thought.


I'd hate to kill your passion but with cuts and the changing face of policing the chances of actually getting an advanced driving course in the Police is slim.
My Forces traffic department was cut by 35% 3 years ago and there cutting another 20% before the end of the year. You'd spend anything from 5 -10 years driving around in a diesel Focus. Then if your proactive and a high performing thief taker, you could apply for one of the few vacancies that arise along with the other 100 officers who want the job. You could join firearms or another department that gets an Advanced driving course as part of their role if your good enough.
Or you could spend your entire career never getting an Advanced driving course.

You join the Police to be a Police officer, gone are the days of old where you always wanted to be a traffic officer since you were a kid, these roles are populated more and more by proactive high performing officers who have no interest in their driver training or traffic offences, there far more interested in using the car as a tool to catch criminals for SAC offences.

Take the car out the equation and if you would still be interested in the job then it may be for you, but don't consider a change of career on the thought that you want to be a Police advanced driver because you will certainly end up disappointed.
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Postby waremark » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:57 am


The High Performance Course is that - a course. The reason to do it is to enjoy a superbly high standard of coaching.
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Postby Kimosabe » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:39 am


playtent wrote:
Kimosabe wrote:
I'd hate to kill my passion by turning a hobby into a career but the potential of being a Police AD is certainly a very intriguing thought.


I'd hate to kill your passion but with cuts and the changing face of policing the chances of actually getting an advanced driving course in the Police is slim.
My Forces traffic department was cut by 35% 3 years ago and there cutting another 20% before the end of the year. You'd spend anything from 5 -10 years driving around in a diesel Focus. Then if your proactive and a high performing thief taker, you could apply for one of the few vacancies that arise along with the other 100 officers who want the job. You could join firearms or another department that gets an Advanced driving course as part of their role if your good enough.
Or you could spend your entire career never getting an Advanced driving course.

You join the Police to be a Police officer, gone are the days of old where you always wanted to be a traffic officer since you were a kid, these roles are populated more and more by proactive high performing officers who have no interest in their driver training or traffic offences, there far more interested in using the car as a tool to catch criminals for SAC offences.

Take the car out the equation and if you would still be interested in the job then it may be for you, but don't consider a change of career on the thought that you want to be a Police advanced driver because you will certainly end up disappointed.


And this is the sad reality of the reason for why, at best, I could join as one of the growing number of volunteer Specials but probably no more. At least that would put me in a better position of becoming fully fledged, than being a new applicant. On occasions where I've had dealings with our Police (most recently for nailing one of three car thieves to the floor in a neighbours garden until help arrived.might be called as a witness tomorrow if the plonker pleads not guilty :roll: ), I've always had a chance to chat about the job and I've seen some of the underlying forces which are acting on targets etc. So while being ever grateful to you for the reminder, this sadly doesn't come as news to me. I find the whole situation pretty depressing because I know a few good people who really do care about their communities who arrived at the same conclusion. So it's no longer self-policing communities but policing communities. <---- spot the idealist ;)

Still very pleased to have you and your insights on this forum and as you can see, so are many others too. Thanks.
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Postby TripleS » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:41 am


waremark wrote:
StressedDave wrote:McLaren 650S, but probably close enough :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Shmee150 if you want to see him doing stuff... There's a video of waremark's motor in there too.

It is an amazing sports car - it manages to combine an excellent ride, a smooth automatic gearbox, full luxury equipment, and adequate refinement, with wonderful handling, lovely steering, and ludicrous performance. But I am not sure how satisfying it is on road, because you (well at least I) cannot sanely exploit its capability.

BTW, for those wanting to spend the price of a flat on a rather nice motor, it is for sale, shortly to be replaced by a slightly more powerful and 100 kg lighter 675 LT. I won't like that as much.

To drive it safely all you need is self-restraint. The more skill and practice you have, the more of its potential you may be able to exploit safely.

The insurance is surprisingly reasonable - I suspect that insurance stats must say that people who spend a vast amount of money on cars tend to look after them carefully.


OK, thanks for that, I was wondering what kind of transmission it would have. Had it been a conventional (old style) manual transmission and clutch arrangement, I had imagined you would need to be quite brutal with it to achieve the claimed 0 - 100 time.

Thinking back to the Mark 2 Jaguar saloons and the E-Types prior to about 1965, they had gearboxes with very weak synchromesh. This meant that gearchanges had to be very leisurely if one wished to be considerate towards the machinery, or it was necessary to double declutch, which still wasn't a quick process. Driven on that basis, I never saw the claimed acceleration times as being readily achieavable by the average private owner. When cars were being road tested by the likes of 'Autocar' and 'Motor' magazines, I guess they received some pretty rough treatment when doing the standing start acceleration part of the test.
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Postby Kimosabe » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:50 am


waremark wrote:The High Performance Course is that - a course. The reason to do it is to enjoy a superbly high standard of coaching.


Aye and It's certainly closer to becoming more possible than before. I still feel that training for and maintaining RoSPA Gold, would do me no end of favours when considering Masters and HPC. More intentional driving is what I need more of.

All the best Mark.
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