Oscarmark - discussion of police/IAM/ROSPA standards

[Oscarmark]

In response to EdgarF's point... I have done a little research into the tests I have done.... indeed most of my ROSPA Tests are actually re-tests, often 3rd, 4th or even more. So by definition, the people sitting the tests not only have significant driving experience, but also a lot of experience taking tests, whereas most of the IAM tests I do are first timers. It would be impossible to answer the question.... how many observed drives or how much instruction is required to pass at F1rst. As I have said, not every driver has a F1rst in them!
So to recap, 95% of the IAM Tests I do ( not counting Mature Drivers Assessments etc ) are people subjecting themselves to an Advanced Driving Test for the very first time whereas about 85% of the ROSPA Tests I do are re-tests.

Hope that helps.

[Oscarmark]

In answer to Kimosabe's comment, I am sure that if you obtained a F1rst ( and well done for doing so ) then I am sure you would also pass at GOLD with ROSPA. When examining either I look for exactly the same!
I would also point out that a Standard Police Driving Course ( Met anyway ) involves driving at speeds well in excess of the National Speed Limit, although I believe this is now capped at around 100mph.

[fengpo]

To answer the question I put in for my test after 3 observed runs (he advised for me to put in for my test after 2 runs) and a pre test. A few months in between my observed runs so I read Roadcraft a few times. Watched Ultimate Driving Craft countless times and learnt lots of stuff that helped on test and in my daily driving. At the Cheddar ADUK day this year.

I was reluctant to answer the question as I hate talking about myself.

All the best!

Conor

[Kimosabe]

I passed the IAM test at F1rst level, first time and I didn't take the RoSPA test because it was mostly repetition, partly going to be as irritating, due to there being a link between the operational needs even of a Police Standard driver and civilian driving and because if there's a Gold, i'm going to get it and nothing less.

I'm not sure I understand the above paragraph. Are you saying RoSPA are testing more along the lines of the Police than the IAM?

Sort of. That either organisation tests along the lines of an operational standard Police driver is disingenuous, because aside from the outright lack of abilities of all but a few observers (a situation that would not happen in a Police driver training unit, in my limited experience), a standard police driver can apply the learned principles to an advanced course, whereas an advanced civilian driver is most likely to never progress beyond test standard or be retested again unless they want to be. Thus standards drop but certificates remain on walls, so to speak.

I meant that my doing one course and test after another, as is often the case in AD, seemed pointless at the time due to evident crossovers ie repetition of dogmatic observer teaching styles with little comprehension of underlying principles. I wanted to gain more depth than that before taking any further training or tests after IAM, because I'm not good with "because a book says so". Now I've gained more depth, I'm happier to fit into a mould in order to pass a test, because I know that there is far more to AD than that which is covered at F1rst and Gold levels. I'll also be more aware of the abilities of an observer and won't have a lack of knowledge or experience to prevent me from spotting dogma etc.

All I can say is thank heavens for this forum, as without its members helping me out, I would have put AD behind me before ever taking a test.

[hir]

I meant that my doing one course and test after another, as is often the case in AD, seemed pointless at the time due to evident crossovers ie repetition of dogmatic observer teaching styles with little comprehension of underlying principles. I wanted to gain more depth than that before taking any further training or tests after IAM, because I'm not good with "because a book says so". Now I've gained more depth, I'm happier to fit into a mould in order to pass a test, because I know that there is far more to AD than that which is covered at F1rst and Gold levels. I'll also be more aware of the abilities of an observer and won't have a lack of knowledge or experience to prevent me from spotting dogma etc.

Not sure that I really agree with you on this. Having achieved an IAM F1RST you could take the RoSPA test immediately, without recourse to "dogmatic" RoSPA tutors or anyone else for that matter. You'd probably, but not necessarily, get RoSPA Gold, it just depends on what happens on the day of course. But, what you would have started was a process whereby you'll be re-tested every three years, so that you'll know that the "certificate hanging on he wall" is always valid, and you have a standard to maintain, uphold and, if you wish to, improve upon. I agree that there... "are more things in heaven and earth, Than are dreamt of in the IAM and RoSPA philosophies"... but one can discover those things after setting one's course on the AD journey.

[playtent]

To answer the question I put in for my test after 3 observed runs (he advised for me to put in for my test after 2 runs) and a pre test. A few months in between my observed runs so I read Roadcraft a few times. Watched Ultimate Driving Craft countless times and learnt lots of stuff that helped on test and in my daily driving. At the Cheddar ADUK day this year.

Thanks for the reply,

So 3 observed drives with an untrained observer, a few months in between reading roadcraft and watching a dvd plenty of times with some self guided practice in between gets an IAM First which is probably equivalent to a RoSPA Gold?

Cheers

[TripleS]

Having achieved an IAM F1RST you could take the RoSPA test immediately, without recourse to "dogmatic" RoSPA tutors or anyone else for that matter. You'd probably, but not necessarily, get RoSPA Gold, it just depends on what happens on the day of course. But, what you would have started was a process whereby you'll be re-tested every three years, so that you'll know that the "certificate hanging on he wall" is always valid....

Ah, a bit like the newly received MOT certificate, that means your car will remain in good roadworthy condition for the next 12 months....

Bits of paper don't guarantee the maintenance of good standards. I just thought I'd mention that.

[GS]

In answer to the question about F1rst and Gold...

1 I know within 10 minutes of an IAM test what the result will be, generally.

2 A F1rst is a flawless drive, a polished drive. If I see a hazard developing and think, I would be doing this right now and then associate does it.

3 There are not many people that can hold it together for the whole test and produce the perfect drive.

Hope that helps?

1 I agree.

2 So, where does that leave Masters? What is your view on the difference in standards between a "flawless drive,..........." F1rst and the different Masters grades?

3 I agree.

[fengpo]

That was just my experience, I would personally advise going to ADUK days over the IAM. Although a plug the Bristol IAM group is superb, really go the extra mile.

[playtent]

Personally, I've yet to either deliver or receive the perfect drive. I believe there is a cup, hidden away in a dusty cupboard at Hendond for the first person who delivers this - along with a ticket enabling sex with a person, or indeed fauna, of your choice, a million billion pounds and some jammie dodgers. </doctor who>

I'm not surprised no one has been given the cup! With 2 week standard courses, a further 2 weeks to become advanced class 2 and then another 2 week class 1 to be able to pursue things proper, it sounds like they have really compacted the training to the minimum.

Cheers

[Kimosabe]

Not sure that I really agree with you on this. Having achieved an IAM F1RST you could take the RoSPA test immediately, without recourse to "dogmatic" RoSPA tutors or anyone else for that matter. You'd probably, but not necessarily, get RoSPA Gold, it just depends on what happens on the day of course. But, what you would have started was a process whereby you'll be re-tested every three years, so that you'll know that the "certificate hanging on he wall" is always valid, and you have a standard to maintain, uphold and, if you wish to, improve upon. I agree that there... "are more things in heaven and earth, Than are dreamt of in the IAM and RoSPA philosophies"... but one can discover those things after setting one's course on the AD journey.

Agreed. That's a valid way to look at it too and thanks for your insight. I'm set to take the RoADAR test someday, just for the hell of it.

I don't equate F1rst exactly with Gold and I also think that there are shades of Gold, because there are also shades of AD. I'm a lighter shade of what I consider to be Gold. That being a higher standard than F1rst. Other holders of Gold who have gone further into AD than that which IAM or RoADAR offer, are not the same gold as I might be but we're all still considered gold.

I often refer to RoADAR/IAM driving as 'Roadcraft advanced driving', which is different to many other people's versions of Advanced Driving, because Roadcraft is a reference text for operational Policedrivers, which I'm sadly not, as well as IAM and RoADAR drivers. I'm just an advanced driver.

But more importantly, it's about what I consider to be a high enough AD standard for me. If I don't think I'm Gold enough by my standards, then what anyone else thinks of me is less relevant. For me, Gold is a good start.

I'm only just ready to accept that if I want to take the RoADAR test, that I'll have to not do certain things that I'm otherwise comfortable doing and do things I only ever do when someone is watching. I'm not that good at being 'good enough'.

[vonhosen]

Personally, I've yet to either deliver or receive the perfect drive. I believe there is a cup, hidden away in a dusty cupboard at Hendond for the first person who delivers this - along with a ticket enabling sex with a person, or indeed fauna, of your choice, a million billion pounds and some jammie dodgers. </doctor who>

I'm not surprised no one has been given the cup! With 2 week standard courses, a further 2 weeks to become advanced class 2 and then another 2 week class 1 to be able to pursue things proper, it sounds like they have really compacted the training to the minimum.

Cheers

Three weeks for standard, two more for covert advanced, two more for full advanced, one more for TPAC.
Wouldn't matter how many weeks you do, you aren't going to do enough to get the Cup.

[Oscarmark]

Police driver training has been reduced drastically over the years. Of course I can only speak for the Met, but in the 80's you had to complete a 3 week Standard Driving Course before you could even step into a Panda! Then another 2 days for the Van. 6 week Advanced was the ultimate. The cars at Advanced level were Rover SD1 V8's, Vauxhall Senators and a smattering of Granadas. Cars then did not have airbags, ABS, Traction Control etc and driving at high speed was challenging to say the least. All the training was done in unmarked cars. Now they use BMW 535, Audi A6/8, Jaguars. They do however now complete Blues and Twos training in both marked and unmarked cars.

What does seem to be happening more often is that the CPS seems to be prosecuting more cops for simply doing their jobs within the limits of their training. That is sad and I am glad I am out.

I believe passionately about advanced driving and believe I do my bit by performing the role of examiner. People really shouldn't get too hung up on GOLDs / F1rsts / shiny GOLDs / not do shiny GOLDs. As someone said, your certificate is like an MOT, it only gives a measure of your abilities during your last test.

[fungus]

As someone said, your certificate is like an MOT, it only gives a measure of your abilities during your last test.

A bit like the L test realy.

[playtent]

The cars at Advanced level were Rover SD1 V8's, Vauxhall Senators and a smattering of Granadas. Cars then did not have airbags, ABS, Traction Control etc and driving at high speed was challenging to say the least. All the training was done in unmarked cars. Now they use BMW 535, Audi A6/8, Jaguars. They do however now complete Blues and Twos training in both marked and unmarked cars.

Although cars may be easier to drive fast than back in the 80's the power the cars produce now compared to then presents a whole new challenge.

The 24V Senator managed 22.7s 0-100mph and 139mph but I remember the elation when a driver I was with managed to get 130mph on the motorway with the light bar dragging us back.

A BMW 535d on the other hand is restricted to 155mph and hits a 100mph in 13.1s.

10 seconds faster to a 100mph means that you'd have the capability to be approaching at almost twice the speed in a 535 than you would have in the trusty old Senator.