Oscarmark - discussion of police/IAM/ROSPA standards

[playtent]

As someone said, your certificate is like an MOT, it only gives a measure of your abilities during your last test.

A bit like the L test realy.

Surely the best measure of future performance is your previous performance in any given test?

[TripleS]

As someone said, your certificate is like an MOT, it only gives a measure of your abilities during your last test.

A bit like the L test realy.

Yeah, I've been getting away with some distinctly unimpressive driving since 19/9/57.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[sussex2]

The cars at Advanced level were Rover SD1 V8's, Vauxhall Senators and a smattering of Granadas. Cars then did not have airbags, ABS, Traction Control etc and driving at high speed was challenging to say the least. All the training was done in unmarked cars. Now they use BMW 535, Audi A6/8, Jaguars. They do however now complete Blues and Twos training in both marked and unmarked cars.

Although cars may be easier to drive fast than back in the 80's the power the cars produce now compared to then presents a whole new challenge.

The 24V Senator managed 22.7s 0-100mph and 139mph but I remember the elation when a driver I was with managed to get 130mph on the motorway with the light bar dragging us back.

A BMW 535d on the other hand is restricted to 155mph and hits a 100mph in 13.1s.

10 seconds faster to a 100mph means that you'd have the capability to be approaching at almost twice the speed in a 535 than you would have in the trusty old Senator.

Ah! The Senator and that lovely engine sound when you put your foot down!
They were used as the 'executive' transport for a company I worked for briefly. The chief executive mentioned to me that he was proud to have such a good British car in the fleet.
I couldn't deceive him and showed the man the plate under the bonnet with the words 'Product of Adam Opel GMBH' stamped on it.
The cars were replaced with Jaguars within a month! They were not as good to drive by a long shot but the boss was happy.

On topic I found ROSPA standards higher than the IAM which is why I took and gained their qualifications; and encouraged others to do so.

[TripleS]

As someone said, your certificate is like an MOT, it only gives a measure of your abilities during your last test.

A bit like the L test realy.

Surely the best measure of future performance is your previous performance in any given test?

I'm not sure I see it like that. It might be the best guide, but it could be of limited value.

Maybe there isn't a reliable guide to future performance, in which case can we do much more than look at the person and see what attitude they bring to the subject. That doesn't really guarantee anything, but it might give some idea of what is likely to happen.

[sussex2]

You have to have a standard, a guide if you will, and success in attaining and (perhaps more important) maintaining a qualification is about as good a one as you are going to get.

[dvenman]

Surely the best measure of future performance is your previous performance in any given test?

Yes, I agree from a formal perspective. From a continual assessment view, one's own critical self-assessment and that of your peers (especially when double crewed) is also invaluable. It's a shame in the world of private driving that others feel inhibited to offer an opinion on the driving of others, positive or otherwise.

[Zebedee]

To answer the question I put in for my test after 3 observed runs (he advised for me to put in for my test after 2 runs) and a pre test. A few months in between my observed runs so I read Roadcraft a few times. Watched Ultimate Driving Craft countless times and learnt lots of stuff that helped on test and in my daily driving.

I know Chris Gilbert's DVD is good, but it's amazing to have learned enough Roadcraft to achieve a F1RST (or even a 'basic' IAM pass) after only 3 observed drives.

I too have a F1RST and a few Golds. However, I can't image knowing enough Roadcraft, and having it sufficiently well ingrained, to get a F1RST after so little training on the road. Perhaps that's just me.

Incidentally, I reckon it was harder to get a F1RST than a Gold. My experience of the standard for achieving a F1RST was exactly as Oscarmark described it. Hence I undertook extra training to step up from Gold to F1RST. I wouldn't have got a F1RST without it, but then the value in these badges is as a goal that inspires you to take more training. It's the training that's important, not the badge.

[sussex2]

Surely the best measure of future performance is your previous performance in any given test?

Yes, I agree from a formal perspective. From a continual assessment view, one's own critical self-assessment and that of your peers (especially when double crewed) is also invaluable. It's a shame in the world of private driving that others feel inhibited to offer an opinion on the driving of others, positive or otherwise.

I never give an opinion on other peoples driving and if asked I always say 'Sorry but I am used to being paid to do that'.

[playtent]

Incidentally, I reckon it was harder to get a F1RST than a Gold. My experience of the standard for achieving a F1RST was exactly as Oscarmark described it. Hence I undertook extra training to step up from Gold to F1RST. I wouldn't have got a F1RST without it, but then the value in these badges is as a goal that inspires you to take more training. It's the training that's important, not the badge.

How do you know the standard? You may have just scrapped a pass on your Gold and passed First by a country mile!
I heard mention of a marking matrix but if your marked out of 4 or 5 then the difference is 20-25%

So you could get a 3 out of 4 which could be 51% or 74% in that particular area.. That's a massive difference.

The other point is IAM and RospA are both an organisation that YOU pay so it's in their interests to pass you, set on their own standard, which they set and no one else checks.

Take the Police for example, a student passes and a few weeks/months later has a massive incident. The IPCC would be coming back to the instructor who would be held accountable for passing that student and would need to justify the pass. If the instructor said, "he had a good drive on the day" I don't think that would suffice!

Who are the IAM and RospA accountable to?

[GS]

In answer to the question about F1rst and Gold... I know within 10 minutes of an IAM test what the result will be, generally. A F1rst is a flawless drive, a polished drive. If I see a hazard developing and think, I would be doing this right now and then associate does it. There are not many people that can hold it together for the whole test and produce the perfect drive.
Hope that helps?

Hello

Can you tell us in your 5 years of examining, how many drivers have you seen who can drive flawlessly and have been awarded F1rst membership?

Thanks

[GS]

The cars at Advanced level were Rover SD1 V8's, Vauxhall Senators and a smattering of Granadas. Cars then did not have airbags, ABS, Traction Control etc and driving at high speed was challenging to say the least. All the training was done in unmarked cars. Now they use BMW 535, Audi A6/8, Jaguars. They do however now complete Blues and Twos training in both marked and unmarked cars.

Although cars may be easier to drive fast than back in the 80's the power the cars produce now compared to then presents a whole new challenge.

The 24V Senator managed 22.7s 0-100mph and 139mph but I remember the elation when a driver I was with managed to get 130mph on the motorway with the light bar dragging us back.

A BMW 535d on the other hand is restricted to 155mph and hits a 100mph in 13.1s.

10 seconds faster to a 100mph means that you'd have the capability to be approaching at almost twice the speed in a 535 than you would have in the trusty old Senator.

I suspect that the Senators which were at Hendon when Oscarmark took his course were the mk1 and possibly mk2 12 valves. The 24v came along later.

A Rover 827 could do a true 130 with a flash bar fitted, a 24v Senator could do noticeably more with the extra 30 / 40ish bhp. In my memory both tended to run out of revs before the aerodynamics made much difference.

[Oscarmark]

In my experience as an IAM Examiner I have now given 2 x F1rsts, and many more GOLDS but as pointed out earlier in this thread, most of my ROSPA drivers have already done tests before sometimes up to 5 times or more. I would really have to study my records to see how many ROSPA drivers get a GOLD at first attempt.

I am not really sure if my observations are helping?

In answer to GS... the 24v Senator came into being around 1990, so the ones I used were 12 valve. We did have a very early Rover 825 manual.... the problem with the 800 Rovers is that the steering had very poor lock, so when doing pursuit training, a Senator could run rings around you.

[GS]

In my experience as an IAM Examiner I have now given 2 x F1rsts, and many more GOLDS but as pointed out earlier in this thread, most of my ROSPA drivers have already done tests before sometimes up to 5 times or more. I would really have to study my records to see how many ROSPA drivers get a GOLD at first attempt.

I am not really sure if my observations are helping?

In answer to GS... the 24v Senator came into being around 1990, so the ones I used were 12 valve. We did have a very early Rover 825 manual.... the problem with the 800 Rovers is that the steering had very poor lock, so when doing pursuit training, a Senator could run rings around you.

Thanks for this.

It's nice to hear that you don't give out F1rsts willy nilly. It does make me wonder how there are so many names on the F1rst register though.

How do you think your idea if a F1rst standard drive compares to a Master's standard? After all, if someone has to drive flawlessly to get a F1rst how can the Master's standard be so much higher?

Thanks again

[hir]

How do you think your idea if a F1rst standard drive compares to a Master's standard? After all, if someone has to drive flawlessly to get a F1rst how can the Master's standard be so much higher?

Thanks again

Hi Graham, we've been through this before. It's really quite simple. The standard required to achieve an IAM entry pass is lower than that required to achieve IAM F1RST; The standard required to achieve IAM F1RST is lower than that required to achieve an IAM Masters pass; The standard required to achieve an IAM Masters pass is lower than that required to achieve an IAM Masters distinction; The standard required to achieve an IAM Masters distinction is lower than that required to achieve a police Advanced Ticket [ignoring the higher speeds aspect of the drive]; the standard required to achieve a police Advanced Ticket is lower than that required to achieve a police instructor's ticket, etc, etc etc.

In order to be an IAM examiner one needs to understand this.

[Horse]

The standard required to achieve an IAM Masters distinction is lower than that required to achieve a police Advanced Ticket [ignoring the higher speeds aspect of the drive]

Some time ago, a RoSPA bike examiner said that he'd give a 'gold' on the basis that, from a following bike and with the candidate not riding using exemptions, he wouldn't be able to tell whether it was a police advanced rider or not.

Or words to that effect.