Skid Pan on the Cheap

[SammyTheSnake]

With the weather being so changeable recently, and frost / snow being a real possibility, the subject of skid pan driving has come to my mind. I'd love to spend some time in a skid pan, but they do tend to cost money I could probably find other uses for.

Plan 1: get a couple of vats of second hand chip fat from the local chippy, pour it all over the car park at the local (largest in europe) Tesco. Hoon around until I get arrested.

Plan 2: get a set of spare wheels from a scrappy, fabricate some "tyres" out of a suitably hard wearing and non-grippy material (open to suggestions here) drive around Tesco's car park on my new SkiddyWheels(TM) and not get arrested because I'm not putting oil all over the place

Plan 3: find some wet grass to play on?

Plan 4: um...

Plan 5: see if we can get a bulk deal if a bunch of AD-UKers club together to hire a skid pan for a day or something?

Cheers & God bless
Sam "SammyTheSnake" Penny

[jont]

Plan 2: get a set of spare wheels from a scrappy, fabricate some "tyres" out of a suitably hard wearing and non-grippy material (open to suggestions here) drive around Tesco's car park on my new SkiddyWheels(TM) and not get arrested because I'm not putting oil all over the place

Any wheels from a scrappy are likely to:
1) come with tyres on that are so cheap/horrible/lacking in tread and
2) to be covered in oil/muddy crud
that the need to invent non-grippy material has already been solved

Most realistically, 5 is probably the best option. However I think you are probably doing yourself something of a dis-service. From your biking I imagine you already will have a better appreciation of which bits of road are likely to be slippery than most motorists, and also be used to tip-toeing around when grip levels are low.

I've seen courses from about £40 to about £80 depending on where you go and what you want to get out of the session. Most skid pans use water + <other slippy fluid> which you wouldn't want to get on your car or tyres so I'd imagine you have to hire the instructors and their cars too.

If you know a friendly farmer, try combining plans 2 and 3.

[hardboiled]

Skid pans provide a good basic introduction to limited grip surfaces but in my opinion they're not a good representation of a real scenario (someone lifting off the gas mid corner at 50mph for example). I remember playing cat and mouse on one of them though - that was quite fun. Had to be quick and smooth enough to catch up the other car without going too far over the limits and spinning out.

[Nigel]

From what limited experience I've had of skid pans I remain unconvinced that apart from a fun day out, they actually serve a decent purpose.

To be good at anything you need to practice.

[SammyTheSnake]

I'm definitely up for finding a suitable flat bit of wet grass, if I can. I agree that a one day session is likely to be a lot less help than regular practice, but then again, I don't see much opportunity for on-the-limit handling without unreasonable risk (i.e. on tarmac on the road, this equates to a very nasty situation!)

Regarding my motorbiking experience, I've grown accustomed to being gentle in dodgy grip situations, but I've not actually had much experience of handling loss of grip (the very few times I've actually lost grip have been rather too sudden to learn much from!)

Option 5 was intended to be something of a serious suggestion. What do people here think of a day out as AD-UK at a skid pan or even on a wet field?

Cheers & God bless
Sam "SammyTheSnake" Penny

[tdubya211]

I had a day out at a skid pan a few years ago as a gift. It was enjoyable, but even though the conditions are staged and controlled, I was terrified. Especially at one stage we had to practice driving at an imaginary child in the road and cadence braking around the child... without hitting it...

Just thinking about it, brings the cold sweats such is the power of the imagination. No such empathy from my then 12year old watching son and his friends, they were cheering all the drivers on to calls of "Die Child ! Die Child !"

It was an entertaining and fun day out, but I too did wonder how important it was especially when you have ABS and maybe in the future all cars will have Traction control too.

Terry

[hardboiled]

but I too did wonder how important it was especially when you have ABS and maybe in the future all cars will have Traction control too.

It's probably 7 years since I last did a "skid-pan" day. I had huge amounts of fun driving the BMW and Sierra and yes I did the cadence braking stuff as well. My question to the instructor was basically why are you still teaching this when the majority of cars (well certainly nowadays anyway) have ABS. I personally had turned up in an Audi A4 Quattro with limited slip this and that and ABS. He didn't argue any point really, they just didn't have ABS cars and so he offered to let me out on the pan in my own car. It was surprising with lots of tread and normal tyre pressures how much grip there was but with a bit of provoking I could get it sideways and proceeded to show a father-daughter who attended how you should brake with ABS - foot down full and keep it down & steer!

If you really want to learn what your car does on a real surface at a real speed then there are whole day courses using an airfield starting from about double what a skidpan day might cost you (pm me if you want a recommendation). Between skip-pan and nothing I'd always go for the skidpan but for a bit more money you can get a lot of time on a more realistic surface and learn a lot more about your own car.

Those that have been lucky enough to drive around the magic roundabout at MIRA will know where the best artificial "skid-pan" in the world is. That is well worth going on but just doesn't quite match up to a frozen Swedish lake

[ROG]

The Leicester IAM group has access to the Lincoln police skid pan.
Last time 12 went on a Saturday and the cost was £25 each. We had use of front and rear drive cars. The instructor put 3 of us in a car with him and we took turns. Great fun. It was fun to watch others from the edge of the pan as well.

[Renny]

Contact your local motor club, join them and start to Autocross, Autotest or enter Production Car Trails. You will learn about car control on low grip surfaces and have a good time.

http://www.msauk.org will take you to the MSA website and you can search for your local club.[/url]

[PeteG]

Out of interest, what's the legality of finding a deserted car park in the snow, and having a bit of a "practice session"? Assuming you're on your own, you're not "cruising", etc.
Am Iright in thinking it could still class as antisocial, depending on whether or not there was anyone about to hear your car (and possible bad language)?

Of course, I'm not going to do this, having spent the day replacing windscreen wash systems, and applying the old Turtlewax... (As an aside, you can sell anything to me if you put the word "foaming" in the description - glass cleaner, wheel cleaner, tyre black... I suppose even a rabid dog...)

[ScoobyChris]

I've never had any probs having fun in icey supermarket car parks. Speeds are pretty low so not really a lot of noise and if anyone else appeared, I'd stop or move on

Don Palmer's limit handling course is certainly good too with more realistic speeds and manoeuvres and comes highly recommended by me

Chris

[vonhosen]

Out of interest, what's the legality of finding a deserted car park in the snow, and having a bit of a "practice session"? Assuming you're on your own, you're not "cruising", etc.
Am Iright in thinking it could still class as antisocial, depending on whether or not there was anyone about to hear your car (and possible bad language)?

You could find yourself served with a section 59 notice.

[Gareth]

what's the legality of finding a deserted car park in the snow, and having a bit of a "practice session"?

You could find yourself served with a section 59 notice.

Is that a theoretical possibility or a likelihood?

I feel it isn't very helpful to point out how the law could be used without giving some idea of the circumstances in which it is actually applied. After all, we have many many laws on the books, which could be used to make criminals out of everyone of us, were they applied in a draconian fashion ...

[vonhosen]

what's the legality of finding a deserted car park in the snow, and having a bit of a "practice session"?

You could find yourself served with a section 59 notice.

Is that a theoretical possibility or a likelihood?

I feel it isn't very helpful to point out how the law could be used without giving some idea of the circumstances in which it is actually applied. After all, we have many many laws on the books, which could be used to make criminals out of everyone of us, were they applied in a draconian fashion ...

In some cases it will be theoretical & in others it is likely. because it depends on how the officer views it. So how exactly is it unhelpful to say simply you could, as I can't say for sure that you will or won't in relation to the question posed ?
PeteG didn't ask about likelyhood either, just the legality.

Some people playing in car parks "do" get served Sec 59 notices.
Do so & whether you do get a Sec 59 notice or not is at the discretion of somebody else.

[Gareth]

Some people playing in car parks "do" get served Sec 59 notices.

OK, but in what circumstances can Section 59 notices be served?

I've made a brief search, then the first case I found was where two people were riding scrambler bikes in an area that had previously been designated a Site of Special Scientific Interest, (SSSI).

They were reported for driving licence and insurance offences, but I presume the Section 59 notice was served because of infringing an SSSI.

What rules would be infringed for which a Section 59 notice could be served for someone playing in a snowy car-park taking care not to endanger others?