What is the harm in downshifting gears and braking during th

[crossword]

What is the harm in downshifting gears and braking during the turn instead of before?

earlier I asked a question in the advanced forum about turning and was told:

“Strictly speaking it is better to complete the braking and gear change before starting to turn. This is one of 'rules' of British advanced driving, and it is designed to increase the level of safety. However most British drivers don't do it this way, and end up braking into the turn and then changing gear as they have nearly finished turning.”

***

well i'm practicing driving and I find when I downshift into a lower gear (2nd) well before the turn, the car goes too slow for me to control properly. It seems to make more sense to downshift just before the turn.

Also, I find I have greater control of the car when i'm braking as I turn. Cos you never know what is coming from the other side. You simply cant see whats on the other side till you turn. Thats why I feel safer having my feet on clutch and brake as I am actually turning.

I dont understand why that is considered wrong or less safe than completing the braking and gear change before starting to turn.

How do you guys do it?

[ROG]

Brake then gear then steer - as long as each part has been completed before going to the next part, then I do not see a problem unless someone is trying to slow you down early because your approach speed is toooooo fast

[Custom24]

Also, I find I have greater control of the car when i'm braking as I turn. Cos you never know what is coming from the other side. You simply cant see whats on the other side till you turn. Thats why I feel safer having my feet on clutch and brake as I am actually turning.

If you can't see what's on the other side, then you need to be moving at a speed where you can stop in the space you can see to be clear. So if you are going around a turn with your foot on the brake, ask yourself can you really stop in the space you have, if the unexpected were to happen. Or are you still slowing down to the speed you would need to be able to stop.

I think you'll find that if you get the speed low enough to be able to stop in the space you have (normally a lower speed than you think), and then take the gear and get back on the gas, normally very lightly, before you start the turn, you'll find you go around with more control, and more feeling in control than you are at the moment.

There are other reasons not to brake in the turn to do with keeping the car stable and avoiding a skid.

Finally, if you are changing gear during the turn, you are asking your hands to do too much at the same time.

[waremark]

Additional points in favour of completing the braking before the gear change, and completing the gear change before starting to steer:

1. In the great majority of bends, speed is limited by vision not cornering grip, to the speed which allows you to stop in the distance you can see to tbe clear. Your shortest vision is before you start to turn - by the time you get to the bend you are already starting to see round it. Therefore it makes sense for your slowest speed to be before you start to turn; once you have started to turn you want to be on the gas to maintain at least a constant speed unless the bend tightens. If you were able to stop in the distance you could see before you started to turn, you don't need to slow any more.

2. Changing gear during the turn not only makes more demands on you, but may destabilise the car.

3. You may not be ready to accelerate as the view opens towards the end of the bend - early acceleration makes more difference to your progress than late braking.

4. If you plan to complete your braking well before the bend or other hazard, you have a safety margin in hand should you have misjudged it.

All this having been said, many expert drivers 'trail brake' blending the end of braking into steering into the turn - although it would be unusual to make the down-change after starting to turn.

[TripleS]

What is the harm in downshifting gears and braking during the turn instead of before?

There is nothing wrong with it necessarily, except that it is not in accordance with THE SYSTEM and therefore many 'advanced' drivers feel denuded by the very thought of applying such outlandish driving techniques.

Look: If you want to do things 'properly' and have the approval of the experts, and pass advanced driving tests, and have certificates to prove your successes, you'd better listen to these other fellows.

Alternatively, if you want to evolve your own methods that work well for you and give you good results, you could try talking to me and I'll try and help. My system has worked quite well this past (almost) 51 years, so I'm inclined to give it a degree of credit - but then I am some what prejudiced.

It's your choice. You don't have to do things the textbook way all the time to get a decent result.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[7db]

What is the harm in downshifting gears and braking during the turn instead of before?

You are asking the car to do a lot of things at once, and increase the risk of a skid if you do one of them wrong or jerkily.

[Porker]

Dave

From my perspective, I think you might do well to reduce the level of sarcasm employed in some of your posts, specifically those where you're having a pop at what are generally advocated as "advanced" techniques.

In the final analysis, your way of doing things has been tested for 50 years and perhaps 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles. The approach outlined in Roadcraft has been in use for around 75 years and several tens of billions of miles, if not much more.

I don't care much whether you choose to adopt some of it, all of it or none of it. However, your desire to dismiss it out of hand seems somewhat arrogant to say the least. I would liken that approach to someone who's managed not to crash a light aircraft for a few years believing that they can teach the RAF a thing or two about flying.

Please remember that there are a lot of us out there doing our best to reduce the chances of those who come for advanced coaching having a crash which might be a life-changing event for them or someone else. Dismissing the approach we advocate in favour of one which suggests doing whatever they like because it hasn't failed *yet* is not especially constructive, not least because every big crash is preceded by many occasions where the flawed method employed didn't let the driver down.

regards
P.

[fungus]

Get it wrong, enter bend too fast, steering and changing gear at the same time, extra braking needed because of unexpected hazard. Think of the outcome. Weight is thrown onto the front wheel on the outside of the curve causing more instability. The car could spin or skid.

Remember a vehicle is at its most stable when traveling in a straight line under gentle power. As you turn in to negotiate a bend you scrub off speed, and the weight of the car shifts towards the outside of the bend. To lessen this effect, as you turn in, apply enough gas to maintain your speed, having already adjusted your speed so as to be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear, on your side of the road. Increase the amount of acceleration as the bend opens out and your view of the road ahead increases.

With practice you will find that your cornering becomes smoother, and you make better progress out of the corner.

Nigel ADI
IAM car

[fungus]

Crossword, you say that you are practicing driving. Does that mean you are a provisional licence holder, preparing for the DSA driving test. Or are you a full licence holder wishing to improve your driving technique?

Nigel ADI
IAM car

[Gareth]

As per crossword's original message, crossword is learning to drive in India.

[fungus]

Thanks for puting in the picture Gareth.

The technique Crossword describes would certainly not go down well on a British driving test.

Nigel ADI
IAM car

[crossword]

Thanks for your input, everyone. How much before the turn should I brake and change gears? I seem to be doing it too early which is why I feel the car crawls when I need enough control over it to make it to the turn.

[crossword]

I also hesitate to accelerate into a turn because then I’d be going a bit fast and wouldn’t be able to stop in time in case something came in the way.

[ScoobyChris]

I also hesitate to accelerate into a turn because then I’d be going a bit fast and wouldn’t be able to stop in time in case something came in the way.

StressedDave describes it nicely when he says as you approach a corner you pick a point where you will *start* to steer. This point usually coincides with the start of the corner, ie where the painted lines on the road start to bend. So, your aim is to arrive at that point at the correct speed for entering the corner. Working backwards from this point, you'll need to allow some road before arriving at the corner to get the gear and some road before that to brake to the correct speed ready to get the right gear. So it's something like this, which the line between Gear and Steer signifying the start of the corner.

Drive ......... | Brake | Gear | Steer (corner) + gentle acceleration |

If accelerating as you reach the turn is causing concern, chances are a) you're accelerating far too hard into the turn, or b) you've arrived at the corner travelling too quickly.

Hope that's some help....

Chris

[Gareth]

How much before the turn should I brake and change gears? I seem to be doing it too early which is why I feel the car crawls when I need enough control over it to make it to the turn.

While the technique is new to you, you will probably find that the braking and changing gear takes place some way before the turning. With experience, (and that means first being able to implement the sequence without needing to think about it too much, as well as developing the judgement needed to work out how much you need to slow down for a bend or turning), then you should be able to complete the gear change quite close to the point where you start to steer.

One point that may have not been made clear is that you should aim to slow down to slightly less than the speed you could use to get around the corner. This then allows some headroom for when your foot goes back to the accelerator pedal.

The idea is that you gently press upon the accelerator after changing gear with the aim of maintaining your speed as you negotiate the hazard, but sometimes you might press slightly too hard and that is where the headroom mentioned above becomes valuable!

So getting back to the sequence and timing, ideally you have completed changing gear and moved your right foot back to the accelerator pedal before turning the steering wheel.

I should say that this is likely to feel very unnatural, but with practice the whole sequence takes less time, it becomes comfortable and the feeling of (and worry about) holding up vehicles behind will diminish.