Introduction

[ROG]

Personaly, I don't like seeing all eggs in one big DSA basket. Fine keep the DSA test there, but why shouldn't someone be able to go straight for the IAM or RoSPA test thus bypassing the DSA test entirely. Bit like someone taking A-level Maths. Should they then take O-level maths? No point.

The same way there are several academic examining boards plus NVQ, BTEC etc then there should also be alternatives to teh DSA driving test.

Nigel

A 'levelling' would be nice - bit like the NVQ - if you have a higher level in any part then that part in the lower level does not have to be taken.

[ScoobyChris]

OK, so a potential pupil comes knocking on the door. He/she wants to learn to drive. The test they have in mind is teh standard DSA driving test. Now I can try and persuade them to take their driving further but, to take them to a higher level, will, very likely, take more lessons, which will increase the cost, possibly quite considerably. Are they happy to take that hit? Are they hell!

But how many of them are aware what the DSA standard requires? And how long does it really take to teach them a few basics. For example, a brief cockpit drill so they're in the habit of familiaring themselves with a vehicle, parking with the backup of the car being in gear, turning the wheels when parking on a hill, starting the car with the clutch depressed, etc. I would have hoped these would be taught routinely as part of covering other DSA required pieces.

It's these good and basic practices that cost very little but drilled in at the beginning will likely stay with them for life. I can't understand why someone with your impressive list of qualifications is reluctant to mention them just because they're not needed for the DSA test.

Chris

[ExadiNigel]

I thought I did mention these in lessons, what makes you think I don't?

I can only make them aware of the consequences of not doing things like starting a car with teh clutch down, whether they continue the practise is entirely up to them. I don't consider these so high up the safety list that they are imperative.

They are reminded of both when they first get into the car because I ALWAYS leave a car in gear.

How many pupils are aware of what is on the DSA syllabus? As many as want to. I believe that teh DVLA send a copy of the DSA progress sheet with every new licence issued.

The DSA syllabus suggests a cockpit drill to include Doors, Seat, Steering, Seat Belt, Mirrors. Not necessarily in that order. But the pupil isn't examined on that, even to the point that the examiner will prompt teh pupil if they forget to put the seat belt on (nerves at the start of test).

Can you imagine how someone would react if they went into a car showroom to buy a Citroen C1 for example. The salesman tries to talk them out of that and suggests a C4 would be a much safer bet (OK, a bit far fetched - I wouldn't buy any Citroen new!). Should he actually refuse to sell the C1 if they wont take the C4?

Should I tell a pupil they can't have a basic driving course and, if they wont accept a more advanced one, tell them to go elsewhere? Where do you draw the line on what to include? Should I teach every pupil to RoSPA Gold standard? It would be nice, but how many could afford the extra time & money? and it would takle a lot of extra time and money, especially for someone who doesn't have the opportunity for private practise.

Nigel

[ScoobyChris]

I thought I did mention these in lessons, what makes you think I don't?

The impression given from your posts was that you did the bare minimum because people would only pay to be taken to DSA standard. If that's not the case then I apologise

Should I tell a pupil they can't have a basic driving course and, if they wont accept a more advanced one, tell them to go elsewhere? Where do you draw the line on what to include? Should I teach every pupil to RoSPA Gold standard?

I think we may be talking at cross purposes. The RoSPA and DSA syllabuses do not agree in several areas so it is pointless teaching them advanced driving. My point was that there are "best practices" which can be taught as part of the DSA learning experience, even if they're not examined, which don't take any real effort and certainly no additional lessons.

Chris

[TripleS]

The answer to this (at least in my possibly deranged mind) is to incorporate some of the key elements of what is popularly taken to be advanced driving into the DSA syllabus.

....and when I say 'key elements' I don't mean excessively whittling on about the holding and handling of the steering wheel.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Renny]

Hi Sedgwick, welcome to the debating chamber

The answer to this (at least in my possibly deranged mind) is to incorporate some of the key elements of what is popularly taken to be advanced driving into the DSA syllabus.

....and when I say 'key elements' I don't mean excessively whittling on about the holding and handling of the steering wheel.

When I was an ADI, I was in the fortunate position later on that I had a full-time job and did Learners as a hobby (still charging the proper rate). I used to include quite a few "advanced" techniques as I tried to teach driving as a life skill, not just to pass the DSA test. This included spending time developing hazard perception, considering vehicle position beyond what the DSA expects, mechanical sympathy, basic maintainance tasks, why it was better to reverse into parking bays etc.

I think the DSA proposals may show an acceptance by them that the day-to-day driving activities are not adequately assessed and that new drivers are not as well equipped as they should be to cope on thier own. It is mainly in the areas of behavour and responsibility that the biggest advances could be made. Just witness how many drivers do not seem to engage in the driving task. Why, because they do not realise the risks they are taking. They think that control of the vehicle was something they had to do for the DSA test, and now doesn't matter as much as other tasks (using the phone, getting to their appontment on time, for example).

I think that more effort has to be made into getting drivers educational standards raised so they are aware of the demands placed on them and the consequences of failing to continuously and consistently apply those standards. This might mean teaching them some of the skills at an earlier age and in different ways to at present.

Longer assessments and repeated assessments would be good too. How many older drivers know how to use ABS effectively? How many know how Stability control or traction control works and what it means if they cause it to cut in? Lots of useful technology has been introduced as our vehicles have been upgraded, unfortunately, they are still controlled by a human brain which may or may not be aware of what is needed....

Think what has happened to computers. Imaging trying to use the internet, control media and imaging with only DOS? Or imaging how a computer user from the 70's or 80's would cope with a moderen PC if they had not been given training or bothered to read the manuals.....

[fungus]

adiNigel wrote,

Personaly, I don't like seeing all eggs in one big DSA basket. Fine keep the DSA test there, but why shouldn't someone be able to go straight for the IAM or RoSPA test thus bypassing the DSA test entirely. Bit like someone taking A-level Maths. Should they then take O-level maths? No point.

Simple really. The authorities control the licencing of drivers. In the current climate of seing legislation as the panacea for all the UKs ills, do you think they would relinquish their control. Remember the words in Driving the Esential Skills, "We are the experts. We set the tests."

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

[MGF]

Personaly, I don't like seeing all eggs in one big DSA basket. Fine keep the DSA test there, but why shouldn't someone be able to go straight for the IAM or RoSPA test thus bypassing the DSA test entirely. Bit like someone taking A-level Maths. Should they then take O-level maths? No point.

The same way there are several academic examining boards plus NVQ, BTEC etc then there should also be alternatives to teh DSA driving test.

Nigel

But the alternatives would have to be statutory bodies as one would have to pass a statutory test to get a licence.

Although there are several academc examining board don't they all examine to the same standard?

[ExadiNigel]

....Although there are several academc examining board don't they all examine to the same standard?

One would hope so.

Nigel

[ExadiNigel]

....Simple really. The authorities control the licencing of drivers. In the current climate of seing legislation as the panacea for all the UKs ills, do you think they would relinquish their control. Remember the words in Driving the Esential Skills, "We are the experts. We set the tests."

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

While the DSA have the arrogance as suggested by the quote you give from DtES I doubt if there will ever be much changed for the better. A little bit of humility would do the DSA some good. They can see how the Fleet regstration works - many companies can supply the training and, provided the ADI passes the course they can be registered as a Fleet trainer without taking further tests. It works well and I see no reason why the same principles wouldn't work for ADI qualification and, even, the standard Driving Test.

Nigel

[MGF]

....Although there are several academc examining board don't they all examine to the same standard?

One would hope so.

Nigel

I thought you suggested different organisations examining to different driving standards though? eg IAM and DSA. In other words go straight to the IAM with a providional licence and leave with a full licence having been taught to drive and examined to IAM standards.

Or are you thinking more in terms of DSA = State school system, national curriculum etc. IAM = Private school system, not bound by natiional curriculum but minimum standard of education, at least, met?

In the end whether you are taught by IAM or the DSA you take the DSA test for qualification, the DSA test being administered by the IAM?

[ExadiNigel]

OK MG I see where we have misunderstood each other.

Short answer is both!

Using your analogy, yes there are several examining boards, many of whom provide several levels of qualification. For example (in old speke) an examining board (or 2 or 3) will provide an o-level qualification in a particular subject, they may also provide an a-level in the same subject. The o-level is an o-level regardless of which examining board set the exam. Similarly no-one would expect someone with an a-level in Maths (for example) to also take an o-level in the same subject.

Going back to driving qualifications, I see no reason why someone shouldn't take any of the advanced tests, pass and then that be recognised by the DSA.

It works with the Fleet registration side of driver training. Although the DSA set 3 exams for fleet registration, I passed the RoSPA Diploma and that gave me exemption from the 3 DSA tests and automatic acceptance on to the fleet register.

Nigel

Nigel

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Nigel

Nigel

... one RoSPA signature and one DSA one?

[ExadiNigel]

[MGF]

I sort of like the idea of having more than one test to get your car licence. Young males might be more attracted to the idea of doing the 'harder' one as it may give them kudos compared with those who do the easier one.