Insurance Document For The Practical Test??

[Gareth]

the test is pretty hard

I think this is a particularly good point; the step up from not driving to being able to pass the driving test is much harder than most non-drivers realise. There's a whole host of co-ordination skills and knowledge that has to be assimilated, and many (most?) find it mentally and physically tiring. Immediately prior to taking the test, I would expect a well prepared candidate to be able to drive safely on unfamiliar roads for a couple of hours without an instructor having to provide any safety related guidance.

[jont]

the test is pretty hard

Immediately prior to taking the test, I would expect a well prepared candidate to be able to drive safely on unfamiliar roads for a couple of hours without an instructor having to provide any safety related guidance.

Although I think my (and friends) experiences suggest the majority of lessons immediately prior to the test are spent driving as many of the test routes as possible, to instil the advantage of local knowledge. I wonder whether publicising test routes is actually a good idea? Although if you didn't have a set of fixed routes, it may be hard to show consistency across many tests/examiners (I imagine there's a standard set of road types that have to be incorporated as far as location permits).

[x-Sonia-x]

Although I think my (and friends) experiences suggest the majority of lessons immediately prior to the test are spent driving as many of the test routes as possible, to instil the advantage of local knowledge. I wonder whether publicising test routes is actually a good idea? Although if you didn't have a set of fixed routes, it may be hard to show consistency across many tests/examiners (I imagine there's a standard set of road types that have to be incorporated as far as location permits).

For me personally, having had 2 lessons a week for 18 months, my instructor covered every test route that was local to me. After failing around 6 tests in my area I decided to go to his area to do my test there (Hornchurch) I had few lessons up there and covered some of the test routes. My final test no 10, I had never driven down any of these roads before, it was all completely new to me so I dont actually believe it makes a difference whether you already know the test route or not.

With pass rates that low I would start looking for a problem somewhere other than the candidates. Either they are being put forward for test before they are ready therefore indicating a problem with instructors, or the tests are wildly inconsistent therefore indicating a problem with examiners. If the test is examined at a consistent standard and the candidate is ready the probability of passing should be really quite high.

Me failing so many tests bought my instructors pass rate down form something like 85% to 45%, it was nothing he had done wrong. I just could not cope with test situation. I think there is definatly inconsistency between examiners, I am not foul mouthing them at all but I failed many tests for reversing wide around corner, on the test I passed I did exactly same thing, and when my examiner told me I passed i said 'no I havent, I reversed wide round corner, ive failed lots tests for that before so I must of failed this time'!! He told me that my driving was fine and that reversing wide did not mean a serious fault. On another occasion, test no 5(LOL) I failed for a 'bad habit' in that on a housing estate near me, theres lots mini roundabouts and I was told by examiner that my positioning wasnt good, I was too near the white line. I accrued 3 minor faults which he said was serious. On this occasion my instructor argued with him, but as he wasnt in car there was nothing he could do. Anyway I think that it is wrong that one examiner should decide in 40 mins if you can drive for the rest of your life, I think it would be much better to ave 2 or 3 hourly assessments with your instructor next to you and examiner in back. They would then get proper feel for how you are driving and also the 'nerves' should of calmed down.

This is only my own personal experience though

[jont]

Anyway I think that it is wrong that one examiner should decide in 40 mins if you can drive for the rest of your life, I think it would be much better to ave 2 or 3 hourly assessments with your instructor next to you and examiner in back. They would then get proper feel for how you are driving and also the 'nerves' should of calmed down.

But once you're loose on your own, you can get yourself into all sorts of stressful situations (say, motorway rush hour, or caught in torrential bad weather). If you can only cope when "calm", is it really safe that you hold a full driving licence.

This isn't so dis-similar a discussion from modular vs final exam GCSEs and A-levels.

[martine]

...So from what I can gather the best thing to do would be for me to approach a driving school take a couple of lessons

Yes absolutely - I'm surprised you haven't already.

...then ask the ADI would they be so kind as to lend me their car for the practical test, do they normally do this?

I'm sure any ADI would be delighted to 'lend' you his car...they will charge for 1 - 2 hours to cover you taking your test as described above. Yes, it's quite normal.

But before you think about the test, just book some lessons with an ADI to see how close you are to passing...you're questions indicate perhaps you may need more help than you think (no offence).

[Russ_H]

Afternoon All,

This thread could run and run. Having spent many years as an examiner after being an ADI,
and having now returned to the ADI fold, I think I can make a few comments here.

Routes - whilst they are now published, they are not rigid. It is essential for an examiner to
be able to alter them. If, for example, a manoeuvring site is unavailable, it will be necessary
to find an alternative, and it can now be very difficult to find suitable manoeuvres. Equally,
if heavy traffic is encountered, it makes sense to alter the route to avoid sitting pointlessly
in a traffic jam.

In an ideal world, I suppose that all test centres would have routes with an even spread of
hazards. In the real world, however, it's almost impossible to arrange such a situation. Most
test centres have a selection of routes that, on the whole, presents a good spread of hazards.
So, for example, it is not necessary for every route to have a right turn at lights, but it would
be hoped that at least one route would present such a challenge. As candidates do not know
which route they are going to go on, it is up to them and their instructor to ensure that they
can cope with all reasonable hazards that they might encounter.

This leads to the situation where an ADI tends to use the route learning strategy. Personally,
I feel that an ADI should familiarise their clients with local hazards. Most people learn in the
place where they are going to be driving normally, so it makes sense. It's not necessary to
pound test routes to achieve that, though. Take them to dodgy junctions, but take them to
other challenges as well.

The great majority of examiners do their best to do a potentially difficult job to the best of
their abilities. There are many quality assurance procedures in place. Realistically, there is
never going to be complete consistency of testing. Compare the likely hazards in a remote
Scottish village to those likely to be found in a city location. Are these two tests the equal
of each other? Should a candidate living in the top left of Scotland be forced to go to Glasgow
for his or her test? Looking from the opposite point-of-view, should a city dweller be allowed
a full licence when they've never driven on a single track road or negotiated a ford?

These issues could be debated endlessly.

Regards,

Russ

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Am I alone in thinking Russ is far too nice and cuddly a name for a driving examiner?!

JK ...

[fungus]

Speaking from personal experience of pupils I have put in for test over the years, most will suffer from nerves. In some cases it can be quite extreme.

I had one lad who was possibly one of the best that I have ever had. He was a very competent level headed driver, and the driving test should in no way have given him any reason for concern as he was above the standard required for the test. However when it came to his test he went to peices. He failed two tests, not from being inadequetly prepared, but simply through nerves. He passed on his third attempt with three driver errors.

Another lad, again a competent driver, but totaly different in that he was very laid back when it came to his test. So much so, that it didn't bother him that his examiner was being check tested, a point that I had forgotten to mention was possible, before he went out. On congratulating him on passing his test, I appologised for not mentioning the possibility of the examiner being check tested. He said that it wasn't a problem, it's only another person in the car.

As far as test routes are concerned, I personaly will not teach them. What I do, is to take pupils around any areas that are likely to cause problems. My personal oppinion is that it is better that learners learn on as many types of roads as possible, and that instructors, and I imagine they are few and far between, that teach pupils mainly on test routes, are doing them no favours. I will accept that for some instructors it will be difficult to give pupils experience on some types of road, just as it is for a test to cover busy town centres and narrow country lanes all within the 40 mins. allocated, due to geographical location. I am fortunate in that where I teach, I have good access to a wide variety of roads, from town centres to fast B roads and narrow country lanes.

As Stephen said, there is pressure on ADIs from both pupil, who wants to pass as quickly as possible, and parents, who want to spend as little as possible. The net result is that ADIs are pressurised nto puting pupils in for test when they are barely ready.

Nigel ADI
IAM observer

[ROG]

As far as test routes are concerned, I personaly will not teach them. What I do, is to take pupils around any areas that are likely to cause problems.

I do exactly the same when LGV instructing.

[Russ_H]

Morning,

Russ,

As an examiner, to what would you attribute the rather high failure rate? Would you say that candidates are generally "ready for test" when they turn up and subsequently fail through silly mistakes or test nerves or are they simply not up to standard? What I am getting at is, how would you rate the overall preparedness of the average test candidate?

It's very difficult to answer these questions, but I'll make a few suggestions.

The issue of test nerves has already been mentioned, and it is undoubtedly a major
problem for many candidates. I think that a lot of this stems from stories that people
hear from friends and family. Have you noticed how many people, when they recall their
test(s), have a horror story to tell. In reality, most driving tests are boringly ordinary.

Looking back, it is completely clear that some instructors produce far better candidates
than others, on the whole. Even the best instructors would occasionally produce a poor
candidate, and these were probably examples of nerves.

It would be very informative to find out exactly how the more successful instructors
operated. It was not, as far as I can work out, simply a matter of more lessons. There
were a number of instructors who were known to sell very high numbers of lessons, but
their candidates were never much good.

What is not clear to the average ADI is the huge gulf in the quality of lessons offered
by instructors. Having carried out ADI check tests for some years, it was my pleasure to
watch many lessons of a very high quality, but, unfortunately, they were vastly outnumbered
by poor quality work.

It was my practice, when conducting a check test, to note down my first impressions of the
pupil's driving after only a couple of minutes. Often, to use examiners' jargon, this would be,
for example, mirror direction, or junction speed plus. It was remarkable how often
these first impressions reflected the pupil's ability throughout the lesson. The main point I
would like to make is that these obvious faults were often not addressed by the ADI until well into
the lesson, and were sometimes never addressed at all. I am not talking here of trivial faults,
but of major issues which merited immediate attention.

It is not, therefore, especially surprising that many candidates attended for test without having
established the fundamentals of good driving.

Regards,

Russ

[ROG]

That's very interesting, thank you.

I suppose it doesn't help when you are bombarded on TV by adverts proclaiming that, "if you have a driving licence, you can become a driving instructor" and "you can earn up to £30K per year". With many people finding themselves out of work I wouldn't be surprised if the ranks of the ADI are swollen with people who are just trying to make a living rather than having any real interest in teaching.

I think someone posted on this site that the ADI test failure rate is about 80% so they are advertising to make money from the training fees me thinks

[The Thinker]

Pass rates for the different ADI test are in their annual report and accounts.

Most recent is

http://www.dsa.gov.uk/Documents/publications/dsa_annual_report_accounts_08-09.pdf

Unfotunately it doesnt say the rate of people finishing ADI training after having started it.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

That's very interesting, thank you.

I suppose it doesn't help when you are bombarded on TV by adverts proclaiming that, "if you have a driving licence, you can become a driving instructor" and "you can earn up to £30K per year". With many people finding themselves out of work I wouldn't be surprised if the ranks of the ADI are swollen with people who are just trying to make a living rather than having any real interest in teaching.

I think someone posted on this site that the ADI test failure rate is about 80% so they are advertising to make money from the training fees me thinks

I think the big schools probably have a permanent shortage of instructors. People join them and get disillusioned by their methods, the tie, and the high commission they have to pay. I think they then either give up instructing quite quickly, or set up on their own as soon as they can.

[fungus]

Mr Colmondeley-Warner wrote,

[quote]I think the big schools probably have a permanent shortage of instructors. People join them and get disillusioned by their methods, the tie, and the high commission they have to pay. I think they then either give up instructing quite quickly, or set up on their own as soon as they can.[quote]

Although there are several instructors out there who have been instructing for many years, I remember reading somewhere that the majority only last about eighteen months.

IIRC a full time frachise with BSM was somewhere in the region of £300 per week seven or eight years ago when their lessons were about £18-£20 per hour. The instructor would have to work fifteen hours plus just to pay the franchise. Factor in fuel, travelling between lessons etc. and your talking of instructors working well in excess of forty hours to make a living.Then factor in the often unsocial hours and the hours through the day, particularly in winter when there is no work and you can see that it is not at all easy to achieve the 30k as advertised by certain training organisations. Many working for them do so because it can be difficult to make a living from instructing learners.

I worked as a franchised instructor for six years, and work was steadily declining. Talking to other instructors, the general concensus of oppinion was that they were taking on more instructors than they could supply work for. Most of the work was going to PDIs. I had been asking for pupils for three months without not so much as one pupil being supplied, and yet there were more PDIs localy with the companies headboards and decals on their cars. Speaking to one, I asked If he was getting enough work. Plenty, was the reply.This confirmed what many of us already knew, that the work was going to PDIs. About eighteen months ago I decided that I would be just as well off advertising in my own name, as it would cost me less per annum than the franchise that I was paying. Thankfully work has picked up well since the winter.

Nigel ADI
IAM observer