Give Way Markings on Major Roads and Roundabouts

For discussion of topics relating to the Driving Standards Agency Learner Test (DSA L Test) and contribution by ADI's (Approved Driving Instructors)

Postby jont » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:04 am


fungus wrote:If we carry on like like this, having to have a sign to warn us of the least little thing, road safety will be in a sorry state as we will have drivers who will not use their eyes to look, but will be relying on signs to tell them that there is a farm ahead, and there just might be a tractor around the next bend.

It's okay, more signs is good because it means:
1) The council can't be sued for failing to warn the driver of the crap roadsurface (rather than just fixing it) etc, and
2) technology is on the way to solve lack of observation with image recognition cameras that will start popping up warnings in car of hazard signs.

Besides, we can always lower speed limits further if accident stats don't improve - that'll help people, right? :roll:
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Postby Gareth » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:24 am


jont wrote:Besides, we can always lower speed limits further if accident stats don't improve - that'll help people, right? :roll:

On the section of A30 near where I live, I'd swear there've been many more accidents since it was lower from NSL to 50. Certainly in all the time I drove along it when it was NSL I was never inconvenienced because of others' accidents, yet it has happened numerous times since. Go figure!
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Postby Big Err » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:55 pm


Gareth wrote:On the section of A30 near where I live, I'd swear there've been many more accidents since it was lower from NSL to 50. Certainly in all the time I drove along it when it was NSL I was never inconvenienced because of others' accidents, yet it has happened numerous times since. Go figure!


You should ask the roads authority for the crash stats before and after the implementation of the speed limit. If you're right it would be execellent information to have for Objecting to new speed limits.
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Postby Big Err » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:03 pm


fungus wrote:Hatched areas are certainly over used, and quite often awkwardly shaped, not allowing a driver to enter a right turn lane with room to position the car correctly as they take up a lot of road before the lane breaks off. As for the argument that they protect traffic turning right, thats nonsense. If a following driver can't see a vehicle turning right, a hatch marking is going to make no difference.


Hatched markings, electronic signs, yellow backing boards on signs, speed limits, double white lines, coloured surfacing etc etc - it seems that in some places the responsible persons are behaving like kids in a sweet shop!

Protecting right turning cars is only really successful if they have a lane to move into which is long enough to allow for deceleration in (funnily enough this is mentioned in the design manuals), not a metre between two warning lines where is the hatching is removed. But the wider the junction the longer it takes right turners from the side road to clear it - resulting in increases in conflicts.

I'll be bumping my gums about this at the Forth Valley advanced Motorists tonight! :lol:
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Postby 7db » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:36 pm


You two really are a pair of grumpy old farts. Victor Meldrew and his twin brother.

I think the guys who pay for the signs would rather it was simple and that the driver did use his common sense as you suggest he can. But every time he doesn't and someone dies, they put up another sign. I'm sure those who can use common sense can read their way through the signage forest (or just slow down until they can).

It's all very well bleating and saying it's oh-so complicated to understand the signage regs but you can't then go and whinge about things moving to the lowest common denominator (one line bad, two lines worse,, four lines...) if you are leading the charge.


I had a lovely drive today, and the signage was just peachy, thanks.
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Postby TripleS » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:55 pm


7db wrote:You two really are a pair of grumpy old farts. Victor Meldrew and his twin brother.

I think the guys who pay for the signs would rather it was simple and that the driver did use his common sense as you suggest he can. But every time he doesn't and someone dies, they put up another sign. I'm sure those who can use common sense can read their way through the signage forest (or just slow down until they can).

It's all very well bleating and saying it's oh-so complicated to understand the signage regs but you can't then go and whinge about things moving to the lowest common denominator (one line bad, two lines worse,, four lines...) if you are leading the charge.

I had a lovely drive today, and the signage was just peachy, thanks.


I don't know if I'm included in your grumpy old fart duo, and I'm not much bothered if I am, but we are the ones (including you too) who pay for the damned signs, so we at least would prefer them to be less numerous; and you, with all due respect, have not proved that the heavy handed deployment of signage is actually leading to a lower shunt tally.

I could equally well assert that it is having the reverse effect, and I don't know if that would be right either, but I suspect they are not doing much good because I fear that most drivers don't see many of them anyhow, and therefore they can't be helped by them.

What we should be encouraging is more skilled reading of the road and its various hazards, and getting people to act accordingly; and never mind about the signs. Then we can get rid of most of the signs, and save all of us a bundle of cash. IMHO that is the way we should be heading.

Best wishes all,
Dave - still a bit sceptical. :)
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Postby Gromit37 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:16 pm


What we should be encouraging is more skilled reading of the road and its various hazards, and getting people to act accordingly; and never mind about the signs. Then we can get rid of most of the signs, and save all of us a bundle of cash. IMHO that is the way we should be heading.


Well said that man!

Mind you Dave, I bet you're not as grumpy and sceptical as I am... just older and wiser :wink:
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Postby Octy_Ross » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:54 am


What's wrong with being a grumpy old man? I've been practising since I was 21 ;-) :-D
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Postby The Thinker » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:11 am


I'll be bumping my gums about this at the Forth Valley advanced Motorists tonight!


I was there. It was an excellent talk.
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Postby sulligogs » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:43 pm


waremark wrote:
sulligogs wrote:I think Andover is still quite a bit out of my depth right now. I've been saying to myself to get up early on a Sunday morning and get on the A45 to join the M42 for a couple of junctions and see how I feel. I've only ever driven once at 60mph on a single carriageway that permitted it with my driving instructor and I loved it. Still, I was too nervous to realise the signs and my driving instructor had to prompt me to slow down and indicate to get off safely.

Are you going to do Pass Plus with an instructor? It is possible that your insurance company will give you a reduction which will pay for all or most of the course, but it is probably worth doing anyway.

Whether or not you intend to do Pass Plus, I strongly suggest that you ask a family member or friend who is an experienced driver to accompany you for a first venture on faster roads and on different types of roads.
After my sons passed their tests, I accompanied them on their first motorway journeys, leaving and rejoining the motorway at each exit (but you have to know that it is possible to rejoin, because there are some exits where you cannot get back on!).

I shan't try to give you a motorway driving lesson here, but can I offer one piece of advice for driving on multi-lane roads? Keep adjusting your speed as necessary to ensure that there is plenty of empty space all round your car - in front of you, behind you, and alongside you.

All the best, Mark


I may be sounding off topic to the last several posts, but would like to thank waremark for his words of wisdom. I have considered the Pass Plus, but on advice from my insurance company that it will not affect my premiums I may just leave it. Apparently, you can only take Pass Plus in the first year of passing your driving test, so I still got many more months left to think things further.

As for going on the motorway, I have had that same advice too, to have someone come along. My friend who is an experienced driver said that on the day he passed the first thing he did was to get on the motorway. He said he absolutely bricked it when he came onto to the slip road because of the noise of the passing traffic and couldn't wait to get off again. He advised that I take it easy :wink:

But thanks for the heads up on reserving the space around me. That will advice will be adhered.

Okay guys, back to your "on" topic!

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Postby Custom24 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:40 pm


Gareth wrote:
jont wrote:Besides, we can always lower speed limits further if accident stats don't improve - that'll help people, right? :roll:

On the section of A30 near where I live, I'd swear there've been many more accidents since it was lower from NSL to 50. Certainly in all the time I drove along it when it was NSL I was never inconvenienced because of others' accidents, yet it has happened numerous times since. Go figure!


Gareth, it's possible we are seeing things from a non-neutral standpoint, but there is a very nice road near where I live where exactly the same thing has happened. I do not recall encountering an accident on it while it was a good enjoyable NSL, but since they've reduced it to a boring 50, I've encountered 4 in one year, one of which I had to help at the scene.

Particularly, there is an S bend which is quite enjoyable, and I've seen 3 cars being recovered from the ditch since it was NSL, and none before.

I would bet money that it will be a 40 limit next year, and I'll have to help at more accidents.
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Postby ScoobyChris » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:33 pm


sulligogs wrote:I may be sounding off topic to the last several posts, but would like to thank waremark for his words of wisdom. I have considered the Pass Plus, but on advice from my insurance company that it will not affect my premiums I may just leave it. Apparently, you can only take Pass Plus in the first year of passing your driving test, so I still got many more months left to think things further.


PassPlus isn't just about cheaper insurance! It's about building on your existing driving experience in a variety of environments with a qualified instructor. One of the areas that Pass Plus covers is motorways so you may be able to kill two birds ;)

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Postby TripleS » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:49 pm


Custom24 wrote:
Gareth wrote:
jont wrote:Besides, we can always lower speed limits further if accident stats don't improve - that'll help people, right? :roll:

On the section of A30 near where I live, I'd swear there've been many more accidents since it was lower from NSL to 50. Certainly in all the time I drove along it when it was NSL I was never inconvenienced because of others' accidents, yet it has happened numerous times since. Go figure!


Gareth, it's possible we are seeing things from a non-neutral standpoint, but there is a very nice road near where I live where exactly the same thing has happened. I do not recall encountering an accident on it while it was a good enjoyable NSL, but since they've reduced it to a boring 50, I've encountered 4 in one year, one of which I had to help at the scene.

Particularly, there is an S bend which is quite enjoyable, and I've seen 3 cars being recovered from the ditch since it was NSL, and none before.

I would bet money that it will be a 40 limit next year, and I'll have to help at more accidents.


The explanation seems quite clear: there are now more people exceeding the speed limits, and exceeding limits is obviously leading to shunts. We need a U turn in policy; no limits = end of problem.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby fungus » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:52 pm


The A350 Holes Bay road that runs around a northern arm of Poole Harbour was reduced from 70mph to 50mph after two fatal incidents. One, a suicide, where a pedestrian ran out in front of an LGV. The other, a young man in a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo travelling in excess of 100 mph, lost control on a bend that is perfectly safe at 70 mph, and ended up in the harbour killing his freind and injuring the others in his car. These two incidents were due to behaviour other than travelling at the speed limit. The reduction in speed limit has not reduced the amount of more minor incidents on the road, as traffic is now more bunched and there seems to be more shunts.

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Postby fungus » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:32 pm


The A350 Holes Bay road that runs around a northern arm of Poole Harbour was reduced from 70mph to 50mph after two fatal incidents. One, a suicide, where a pedestrian ran out in front of an LGV. The other, a young man in a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo travelling in excess of 100 mph, lost control on a bend that is perfectly safe at 70 mph, and ended up in the harbour killing his freind and injuring the others in his car. These two incidents were due to behaviour other than travelling at the speed limit. The reduction in speed limit has not reduced the amount of more minor incidents on the road as traffic is now more bunched and there seems to be more shunts.

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