ADUK Archive

WhoseGeneration wrote:

TheInsanity1234 wrote:I'll see if I can get it some point

I hope you appreciate that most here are really looking forwards to your posts describing your actual on road learning experiences.
My advice? Don't be too cocky, just take on board what your instructor tells you.
It is rather rote, accept it and then you can move onto AD.

What is "rather rote"?

Ralge wrote:I'm still wondering what specifically you expect to be taught and what you perceive you would do to pass the L-test but chuck out afterwards.

Famously, position on left hand bends and through empty roundabouts.

But some ADI's teach all sorts of 'bad' habits which do not adversely affect the result of the DSA test (examples - a well-regarded local instructor who recommended holding the clutch at the biting point while waiting for a gap to enter a roundabout, and whose recommended parallel parking technique required the use of 'dry steering'.

waremark wrote:

Ralge wrote:I'm still wondering what specifically you expect to be taught and what you perceive you would do to pass the L-test but chuck out afterwards.

Famously, position on left hand bends and through empty roundabouts.

But some ADI's teach all sorts of 'bad' habits which do not adversely affect the result of the DSA test (examples - a well-regarded local instructor who recommended holding the clutch at the biting point while waiting for a gap to enter a roundabout, and whose recommended parallel parking technique required the use of 'dry steering'.

Ok, it was a genuine question since:
I have had very few pupils for a long while; DSA and RoSPA have converged somewhat over the years; I have probably taught an amalgam of everything and have blurred any distinctions.

Positioning: I can't think of too many left hand bends on my local test route areas that would throw up any sharp differences between the two "schools" or any roundabout that would be "empty" at test times. I have taught both options as, well, options. Passing through hatched areas (dotted line) that protect right turning box is one that I have been wary of, though. I think I have taught "pass through it for good reason and in safety rather than by default".
Whether anything I have taught as part of my amalgam would raise a DSA eyebrow, I can't judge by the low number of tests I have done over the last few years.

As for ADI's teaching "bad", well that certainly happens and only last week I sat with a van driver who indicated at every verse end (without having checked). He didn't see the need to check (the real problem), insisting that his AA "advanced" instructor (on a wannabe taxi driver session) had told him to always indicate. Maybe he heard him wrong (??) and I know some DSA examiners have their "bad" moments on signalling in spite of what it says in "D:tES" (or is that a false memory of mine?)
"Bad" is learning by rote and that certainly happens at the budget end of this business (intensive courses and the rush to test) - I hope, though, that move to coaching has reinvigorated the chance of presenting thinking drivers for a test. Thinking drivers have choices and have the means of working it out on the move.
Well, thinking driving has always been my target, at least.

mefoster wrote:

TheInsanity1234 wrote:I must admit, I've always had issues trying to decide which spelling variant is supposed to be used, because now so many of my friends use the american spelling for a lot of things, which has resulted in me getting slightly confused about what spelling to use.

With licence and license it's not a difference between UK and US usage, rather the difference is that licence is the noun and license is the verb.

Except in the US where they spell both with an "s", because Mr Webster decided it would be easier for them.

@Insanity1234 - I won't be spelling "sulphur" as "sulfur" any time soon!

Ralge wrote:I'm still wondering what specifically you expect to be taught and what you perceive you would do to pass the L-test but chuck out afterwards.

Well, as someone else has mentioned, the roundabout positioning on empty roundabouts.
But also the perception that you have to wheel-shuffle everywhere you go is going out of the window.

I don't expect to be taught anything in particular which I would just throw out of the window automatically, but anything that I feel doesn't improve my driving standards in any way won't be used very often.

When I say I'll chuck them out of the window, I don't mean I'm going to forget about them 100%, I just mean I won't use them that much

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:@Insanity1234 - I won't be spelling "sulphur" as "sulfur" any time soon!

Ah it's really annoying how Americans seem unable to cope with the fact that 2 letters can make the same sound as a different letter.

TheInsanity1234 wrote:

Ralge wrote:I'm still wondering what specifically you expect to be taught and what you perceive you would do to pass the L-test but chuck out afterwards.

Well, as someone else has mentioned, the roundabout positioning on empty roundabouts.
But also the perception that you have to wheel-shuffle everywhere you go is going out of the window.

I don't expect to be taught anything in particular which I would just throw out of the window automatically, but anything that I feel doesn't improve my driving standards in any way won't be used very often.

When I say I'll chuck them out of the window, I don't mean I'm going to forget about them 100%, I just mean I won't use them that much

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:@Insanity1234 - I won't be spelling "sulphur" as "sulfur" any time soon!

Ah it's really annoying how Americans seem unable to cope with the fact that 2 letters can make the same sound as a different letter.

Wheel shuffling (inefficient) à la Clarkson IAM jibe, full 360 degree (in two hand movements) pull-push, crossing hands or whatever ... Anything goes these days with the DSA as long as control is not threatened or lost.

Still wondering, though, what exactly from your L-test lessons and test you won't use that much.

TheInsanity1234 wrote:Ah it's really annoying how Americans seem unable to cope with the fact that 2 letters can make the same sound as a different letter.

See how they get on with this

Ralge wrote:Wheel shuffling (inefficient) à la Clarkson IAM jibe, full 360 degree (in two hand movements) pull-push, crossing hands or whatever ... Anything goes these days with the DSA as long as control is not threatened or lost.

Still wondering, though, what exactly from your L-test lessons and test you won't use that much.

Well I couldn't possibly tell you exactly what I probably wouldn't use, as I don't know what I'll like and dislike until I actually do it.
There's a chance that I might actually like everything I'm taught, but I'm certain, like everybody else, there may be something that doesn't fit or something, and if that's the case, then I may just investigate alternative methods of doing the same thing until I find one that fits nicely.

But I know for a fact if my driving instructor tries to get me to do the inefficient wheel shuffling à la Clarkson IAM jibe, I'm going to ignore him.

I know there's a myth going around that you automatically fail your test if you cross your arms, but as you've said, and I've always known that you don't fail the test based on the exact methods of doing things, it's whether the outcome is safe.
So, as you said, any steering method goes, as long as I don't crash (slight exaggeration) at every corner, then it's ok.

jont wrote:

TheInsanity1234 wrote:Ah it's really annoying how Americans seem unable to cope with the fact that 2 letters can make the same sound as a different letter.

See how they get on with this

Ouch. They'd probably die due to their brains (if they have any) imploding due to their inability to process all of them

Ralge wrote:
What is "rather rote"?

Thinking about this, it was rather a poor phrase on my part. It's just that I was concerned that TheInsanity1234 having obviously read and researched much about driving, especially here, would, perhaps, try to introduce to his initial learning techniques and approaches that might complicate that initial learning.

Oh dear, I note he's already a bit anti Pull Push.
That's part of my point, he's not yet tried it or been on an ADUK day and seen that many are very good drivers who often and some, mainly, use that technique.

Have to obtain the GCSE before you can progress up the ladder to a PhD.

WhoseGeneration wrote:

Ralge wrote:
What is "rather rote"?

Thinking about this, it was rather a poor phrase on my part. It's just that I was concerned that TheInsanity1234 having obviously read and researched much about driving, especially here, would, perhaps, try to introduce to his initial learning techniques and approaches that might complicate that initial learning.

Oh dear, I note he's already a bit anti Pull Push.
That's part of my point, he's not yet tried it or been on an ADUK day and seen that many are very good drivers who often and some, mainly, use that technique.

Have to obtain the GCSE before you can progress up the ladder to a PhD.

Hence why I was just going to accept whatever the instructor told me as fact, then when I pass I would experiment with different methods of doing something until I found one I was comfortable doing.

Also, I'm not against push-pull (the one where both hands move 180° up and down on both sides of the wheel, if that makes sense), it's the shuffle I dislike as it's a complete waste of time.
Unfortunately, a lot of learners seem to think the shuffle is the "official" method of steering.

TheInsanity1234 wrote:

WhoseGeneration wrote:

Ralge wrote:
What is "rather rote"?

Thinking about this, it was rather a poor phrase on my part. It's just that I was concerned that TheInsanity1234 having obviously read and researched much about driving, especially here, would, perhaps, try to introduce to his initial learning techniques and approaches that might complicate that initial learning.

Oh dear, I note he's already a bit anti Pull Push.
That's part of my point, he's not yet tried it or been on an ADUK day and seen that many are very good drivers who often and some, mainly, use that technique.

Have to obtain the GCSE before you can progress up the ladder to a PhD.

Hence why I was just going to accept whatever the instructor told me as fact, then when I pass I would experiment with different methods of doing something until I found one I was comfortable doing.

Also, I'm not against push-pull (the one where both hands move 180° up and down on both sides of the wheel, if that makes sense), it's the shuffle I dislike as it's a complete waste of time.
Unfortunately, a lot of learners seem to think the shuffle is the "official" method of steering.

Huge generalisation here - "lot of learners" "shuffle"?
My own generalisation, my own take on it:
Somewhere in the process, pull-push may or may not be taught (poorly, ineffectively?) but not adopted in its purest form and it becomes "shuffle". Once passed, the driver understands it intuitively to be inefficient and hand over hand comes in and this applies to the bulk of the driving public that I sit next to daily (without having to bite my nails about it).
It is only in the last few years that the DSA officially noted that crossing hands would not be marked down and some instructors, no doubt, are unaware of this. If I had learners, I would let them get on with what they are comfortable with and only intervene with, say, pull-push if they risk knotting their arms ... Pull-push unties the knot.
Because of muscle groups and gravity a pull-down first before a push-up is best. I wondered about this but did find very early on that ragged, imprecise steering went away having got the pupil to pull down first.

In any case, there are lots of far more important things than steering (hands and feet things) to master - that's why the DVSA have downgraded steering methods in their marking scheme.
Find a decent instructor and you won't need to think "yeah, yeah, I'll be ditching that as soon as ..." - one that teaches qualified drivers "defensive" and "advanced" (and who is qualified to do so, too) but that's my being partial rather than impartial. The one who will teach you to drive not just pass a test.

Ralge wrote:Because of muscle groups and gravity a pull-down first before a push-up is best. I wondered about this but did find very early on that ragged, imprecise steering went away having got the pupil to pull down first.

I'm not sure it makes a huge difference, especially when so many cars have over-assisted power steering.

When I was regularly driving a car without power steering, a coach suggested pushing first might get a better result. These days I find myself pushing first more of the time - often as the most natural transition from fixed grip where a small amount of steering lock has already been applied and the lower hand is moving to the top of the wheel as the upper hand pushes to meet it.

Ralge wrote:Huge generalisation here - "lot of learners" "shuffle"?
My own generalisation, my own take on it:
Somewhere in the process, pull-push may or may not be taught (poorly, ineffectively?) but not adopted in its purest form and it becomes "shuffle". Once passed, the driver understands it intuitively to be inefficient and hand over hand comes in and this applies to the bulk of the driving public that I sit next to daily (without having to bite my nails about it).
It is only in the last few years that the DSA officially noted that crossing hands would not be marked down and some instructors, no doubt, are unaware of this. If I had learners, I would let them get on with what they are comfortable with and only intervene with, say, pull-push if they risk knotting their arms ... Pull-push unties the knot.
Because of muscle groups and gravity a pull-down first before a push-up is best. I wondered about this but did find very early on that ragged, imprecise steering went away having got the pupil to pull down first.

In any case, there are lots of far more important things than steering (hands and feet things) to master - that's why the DVSA have downgraded steering methods in their marking scheme.
Find a decent instructor and you won't need to think "yeah, yeah, I'll be ditching that as soon as ..." - one that teaches qualified drivers "defensive" and "advanced" (and who is qualified to do so, too) but that's my being partial rather than impartial. The one who will teach you to drive not just pass a test.

That's what I think happens in terms of steering. Someone tries to teach a learner how to pull-push, but the learner misunderstands and this results in the wheel-shuffle, which a lot of learners do until they pass their test, and when that's sorted, they just go to the hand over hand method.

Gareth wrote:

Ralge wrote:Because of muscle groups and gravity a pull-down first before a push-up is best. I wondered about this but did find very early on that ragged, imprecise steering went away having got the pupil to pull down first.

I'm not sure it makes a huge difference, especially when so many cars have over-assisted power steering.

When I was regularly driving a car without power steering, a coach suggested pushing first might get a better result. These days I find myself pushing first more of the time - often as the most natural transition from fixed grip where a small amount of steering lock has already been applied and the lower hand is moving to the top of the wheel as the upper hand pushes to meet it.

Very interesting. We are all different. I transition by sliding the upper hand down to meet the other hand that is doing the pulling. But then I pull push by pulling down first, at times having taken a good bight sometimes past 12 to start the steering, so it is more natural for me to transition that way.

As most would agree it's using the technique that works best for you provided it achieves the desired outcome.

If I want to get a lot of steeing on I start my pull from 9 o clock for a right turn, and 3 o clock for a left turn. Otherwise I start the pull from 12 o clock.