Independent Driving.

For discussion of topics relating to the Driving Standards Agency Learner Test (DSA L Test) and contribution by ADI's (Approved Driving Instructors)

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:11 pm


WhoseGeneration wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:Nope, he has extensive experience of teaching deaf pupils from my school, but my school is an oral school, which means he does not use BSL.


Presumably he has had students pass? If so that would imply he has ensured students have been able to undertake the independent driving part.
Fwiw, my view is don't sweat the test yet. I appreciate you're trying to gain as much knowledge as you can, your being here shows that but wait until you're actually having lessons on public roads and then raise any concerns here.
Something that slightly concerns me is that you might try to be too "AD". By that I mean, just accept what you're told to do for the test, don't argue based upon what you've read here or elsewhere.
Pass test, then AD.

I just want to make it clear that I'm not overly concerned about the test, I'm only asking because I just had a sudden "oh but what if?" moment that resulted in me posting the thread :lol:

I don't intend on trying to be "AD" at all. And I've had plenty of experience of just being told stuff and then doing it (GCSEs for a start :lol:). I don't intend on arguing anything because I realise that I'm different and have a very questioning mind, but this often leads to my downfall in a lot of exams, because I almost always question things, then try to answer it myself rather than just repeating what I've been taught in the classes.

The education system has a knack for stamping on the "different" pupils, and encouraging the "normal" pupils.

triquet wrote:Some very good advice here. You will probably find that once you get out on the public roads, other drivers will be behaving in strange and unpredictable ways. The most useful AD lesson you can learn even at this stage is observation. :shock:

Stuff will be happening all around you, and you only have your eyes to take in the information.

(my italics)
That has always been an amusing statement for me in relation to driving, because... Well, think back to the last drive you made.

Now think about how much of a difference losing all of your hearing would have made? You can't hear the radio?

Anything else...?

Even when being driven, use the time to soak up what is going on around you. Observe and analyse. Comment to yourself about what you are seeing (don't do it out loud, you may be asked to get out and walk ...)

I do this already :lol:

(Of course I won't do it out loud, I can't reveal how mad I am to others... They all think I'm sane! I'd like to keep it that way :mrgreen:)
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Postby bbllr87 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:52 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote:
triquet wrote:Some very good advice here. You will probably find that once you get out on the public roads, other drivers will be behaving in strange and unpredictable ways. The most useful AD lesson you can learn even at this stage is observation. :shock:

Stuff will be happening all around you, and you only have your eyes to take in the information.

(my italics)
That has always been an amusing statement for me in relation to driving, because... Well, think back to the last drive you made.

Now think about how much of a difference losing all of your hearing would have made? You can't hear the radio?

Anything else...?


On our last drive we would have been unable to hear the fire engine sirens - heard from so far away that we couldn't see which direction it was travelling in, and from much further away than surrounding drivers who did not have their roof down! Maybe not such an advantage..
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:00 pm


bbllr87 wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:
triquet wrote:Some very good advice here. You will probably find that once you get out on the public roads, other drivers will be behaving in strange and unpredictable ways. The most useful AD lesson you can learn even at this stage is observation. :shock:

Stuff will be happening all around you, and you only have your eyes to take in the information.

(my italics)
That has always been an amusing statement for me in relation to driving, because... Well, think back to the last drive you made.

Now think about how much of a difference losing all of your hearing would have made? You can't hear the radio?

Anything else...?


On our last drive we would have been unable to hear the fire engine sirens - heard from so far away that we couldn't see which direction it was travelling in, and from much further away than surrounding drivers who did not have their roof down! Maybe not such an advantage..

Yes, but you'll find that in an perfectly ordinary car (not a convertible), with good observational skills, you'll often see the fire engines/ambulances/emergency vehicles before you hear their sirens.

So, not much of a difference. Any more suggestions?
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Postby Gareth » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:06 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote:Yes, but you'll find that in an perfectly ordinary car (not a convertible), with good observational skills, you'll often see the fire engines/ambulances/emergency vehicles before you hear their sirens.

I find the obverse. Of course my observational skills are probably not at all good.

TheInsanity1234 wrote:
triquet wrote:you only have your eyes to take in the information.

think about how much of a difference losing all of your hearing would have made? You can't hear the radio?

Anything else...?

I listen to the engine. I'm sure without being able to hear engine pitch, gear changing would be more difficult.

Odd, unusual or unexpected sounds are always interesting, not least because they sometimes herald a problem.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:35 pm


All senses play a part in driving, hearing just as much as the others. You will have ways of compensating for not being able to hear, but you shouldn't write off hearing just because you don't "participate" in it.

For example, when you're reversing out of your drive, and an oncoming motorist gives you a horn warning to tell you to stop, you won't hear it, so you'll need to be extra vigilant in the first place. When you cross a hump backed bridge, similarly. As per the previous example, most of us hear emergency vehicles before we see them. Sorry, but that's the way it is. YOU see them before you hear them, maybe your peripheral vision is more sensitive than ours, maybe not. Still doesn't help when the emergency vehicle is round a corner.

Gear changing, as Gareth says, often involves hearing. It does for me, too. You will have to substitute vibration, monitoring the rev. counter, or some other input.

Topically, some of us might hear a high revving motorcycle engine before seeing the motorcycle ... (no humour intended).
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:43 pm


Well, I'm not writing off hearing as a completely unnecessary thing when it comes to driving. Being able to hear unusual noises is a boon in that case, especially when it's the grinding of a wheel bearing on it's way out!

I'm merely suggesting that in day to day life, people place far too much reliance on the ability to hear.

Also, I understand that a large majority of you use your hearing ability to listen to the engine, but being unable to hear the engine doesn't affect your ability to change gear smoothly at all.

In the cars that I drive with the Young Driver Scheme (Skoda Citigo), there is no rev counter, and since I don't hear the engine, I change gear according to how the car is "feeling", not vibration. Literally, feel. As in, is the car happy, or does it feel like it could do with a lower gear or does it feel like it's going to start running out of power.

It's awkward to explain on here, but I hope I've explained it well enough.

I don't mean to be argumentative, I know I can come across as that, but I only wish to encourage healthy debate.

In fact, it may be interesting to have a driving day where everybody has to wear ear plugs! It'll be very interesting to see whether it makes a marginal difference to how people drive, or whether people end up stuck in completely inappropriate gears because they can't hear the engine!

As regards the driveway thing, with good observation, you'd never have someone beeping their horn at you for reversing out into their path.

I can see how the hump-backed bridges will be an issue. Hence, extra care would be necessary in order to negotiate them.

In fact, you mention my peripheral vision may be more sensitive. That is actually true, as since I can't hear, my brain has adapted to gleaning as much signal as it is possible to get from my eyes, which means I have a wider field of vision than the average hearing person. There is a study that has shown these results, but I can't bring it up on Google at the moment.
I will try to find it and add a link if I do.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:23 pm


Sit for a minute and think scientifically about what "how the car feels" actually involves. You have 5 senses. Which one are you using to tell how the car feels?

Sight? Nope, there's no rev counter (although you could potentially be using Vanman's gearstick monitoring technique :P )
Hearing? Nope, you haven't got any.
Smell? Really? Not unless you're close to a mechanical limit you don't want to be anywhere near!
Taste? Nope.
Touch - is all that's left. i.e. sensing the vibrations. Low, juddery, engine must be labouring, time to change down. High, buzzy, time to change up.

There isn't a mythical driving sixth sense. Physical inputs + experience = driving plan.

Re the driveway, yes. However it's one of the few situations where I regularly resort to horn warnings.
Re other senses adapting to/compensating for the loss of one, yes, that's what I meant. It's a well documented phenomenon.
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Postby Gareth » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:39 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote:I understand that a large majority of you use your hearing ability to listen to the engine, but being unable to hear the engine doesn't affect your ability to change gear smoothly at all.

For myself, I think you may be wrong - if I play music very loudly in the car I tend to find my gear-changes are less smooth ... good enough but, without the negative feedback that hearing affords, I find the delicate correction is often missing.
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:53 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Touch - is all that's left. i.e. sensing the vibrations. Low, juddery, engine must be labouring, time to change down. High, buzzy, time to change up.

But that's just it, I regularly experience the low juddering feeling because my parents don't understand that you can change down even when it's not strictly necessary :roll:
I also know about the high, buzzy vibration because of my mum's tendency to rev the car in first gear when pulling away quickly.

I know about those very obvious feelings, but what I'm talking about are the feelings where the engine is in the middle of the range, where 4th and 5th can happily propel you along at about 45ish, (probably where most people would say they use the engine pitch to decide on an appropriate gear), I use the feel of the car. I literally cannot think of how to put it into words, but I just seem to know when there's a better gear for the situation. I'm lost for words to use to describe it. Of course, I use the touch sense, but, like, it's something I don't think about, I just change gear when my instincts tell me to. (That's about the best explanation I can muster)

Gareth wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:I understand that a large majority of you use your hearing ability to listen to the engine, but being unable to hear the engine doesn't affect your ability to change gear smoothly at all.

For myself, I think you may be wrong - if I play music very loudly in the car I tend to find my gear-changes are less smooth ... good enough but, without the negative feedback that hearing affords, I find the delicate correction is often missing.

I do notice a few drivers do seem to drive in a slightly different, and less smooth manner when the radio is playing loudly, but I've always wondered whether it's actually because you can't hear the engine quite as well, or whether it's just a case of (for the majority) loud music removing a tiny little portion of your brain's processing power which may be the difference between a impossible-to-notice gear change, and a slightly jerkier change.

Funny thing, I've noticed that some drivers, when playing very bassy (or base-y, I can never decide which is better) music, they seem to go through the motions of driving in a manner that matches the rhythm of the music.
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Postby fungus » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:36 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote: I use the feel of the car. I literally cannot think of how to put it into words, but I just seem to know when there's a better gear for the situation.


I think what you mean, is that you are aware of the speed because of static objects around you and the speed at which the car passes them, although the speed in mph may not be known. And when to change gear by the engines response to you pressing the accelerator pedal, ie. no response, engine feels very sluggish, I need to change down.

In my Fiesta, it is not possible to see any numbers on the speedometer dial below 80mph, but because I'm in the car every day, I can tell by feel and the speed at which we pass static objects, the vehicles speed within a couple of mph. In the case of a person with reasonable hearing, they should be able to judge the vehicles speed to within two or three mph with practice, but I doubt that the majority of drivers pay that much attention.
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:41 pm


fungus wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote: I use the feel of the car. I literally cannot think of how to put it into words, but I just seem to know when there's a better gear for the situation.


I think what you mean, is that you are aware of the speed because of static objects around you and the speed at which the car passes them, although the speed in mph may not be known. And when to change gear by the engines response to you pressing the accelerator pedal, ie. no response, engine feels very sluggish, I need to change down.

In my Fiesta, it is not possible to see any numbers on the speedometer dial below 80mph, but because I'm in the car every day, I can tell by feel and the speed at which we pass static objects, the vehicles speed within a couple of mph. In the case of a person with reasonable hearing, they should be able to judge the vehicles speed to within two or three mph with practice, but I doubt that the majority of drivers pay that much attention.

It's not speed related, it's not vibration related.

It's more to do with the torque. Like, my thought process would be "oh, the car isn't accelerating with as much force as it was just now, I'll change up" or vice versa.

I don't know! :|
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Postby WhoseGeneration » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:02 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote:I don't know! :|


But you feel?
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:26 pm


WhoseGeneration wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:I don't know! :|


But you feel?

Yes, exactly.

I feel sorry for you all, you must be wondering what on earth I am taking! :lol:

Honestly, it's such an simple thing for me, but when I think about it, I realise I have no actual idea what exactly is it that I use to decide on an appropriate gear.

It's pure instinct, that's as far as I can explain it really. It might make sense to you guys, it might not. But I know it makes sense to me :mrgreen:
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Postby fungus » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:37 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote:
WhoseGeneration wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:I don't know! :|


But you feel?

Yes, exactly.

I feel sorry for you all, you must be wondering what on earth I am taking! :lol:

Honestly, it's such an simple thing for me, but when I think about it, I realise I have no actual idea what exactly is it that I use to decide on an appropriate gear.

It's pure instinct, that's as far as I can explain it really. It might make sense to you guys, it might not. But I know it makes sense to me :mrgreen:


I'ts a bit like the first time you try to talk a learner through a task that is second nature to you. You have to realy think of what you do.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:19 pm


chriskay wrote:
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:For example, when you're reversing out of your drive, and an oncoming motorist gives you a horn warning to tell you to stop, you won't hear it, so you'll need to be extra vigilant in the first place.


The answer to that is, of course, never to reverse out of your drive; reverse in instead.

Yeah yeah - but then of course you may have Dom's problem of living on a busy road. I pointed out later that it was more about where I use horn warnings, than others issuing them to me.

Re "feel" - yes of course there's the engine response to factor in as well as vibration, Insanity. Well done if you're already picking up all these different signals and using them to your advantage.
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