Poor Professional Drivers

[jcochrane]

When I experience bad driving from professionals, usually when articulated lorries pull into lane 2 on the d/c after one flash of yellow light while I am approaching much faster in that lane

Umm . . . so you know - or should be able to guess - that a lorry is likely to move out, but you still approach much faster?

Perhaps you need to re-think your driving . . .

Oh yes, of course it's my fault when I am passing a HGV and fail to anticipate that he intends to pull out with only a single indicator flash warning. I must remember to renew my Mind Reading training again....

I'm not talking about flying along at 90 with a roundabout approaching where heavies need to change lanes or some other situation where you can expect that HGVs may be changing lanes - you seem to assume I'm some sort of muppet.

Perhaps you could tell us why the HGV moved into lane 2. Was it to overtake a slower moving vehicle?

[ExadiNigel]

....Oh yes, of course it's my fault when I am passing a HGV and fail to anticipate that he intends to pull out with only a single indicator flash warning. I must remember to renew my Mind Reading training again....

I'm not talking about flying along at 90 with a roundabout approaching where heavies need to change lanes or some other situation where you can expect that HGVs may be changing lanes - you seem to assume I'm some sort of muppet.

If the cap fits, you're welcome to wear it.

It's nothing to do with mind reading, purely looking at a situation, anticipating how another driver might interpret & react to the situation. Ask yourself, what's in the hard shoulder (is there a chance that may pull out in front of the HGV?), what's ahead of the HGV? Is the HGV closing on an obstacle ahead? If so what might he do? Take that a step further, if he is gaining on a vehicle ahead move out (if there is one) to another lane before the HGV even signals or ease off and hold back. Just because you are in an outer lane travelling faster doesn't give you a right of way!

It comes under the heading of "Showing consideration for other road users".

Nigel

[ROG]

Isn't this sort of situation a 6 of one and half dozen of another ???

I can see a lack of anticipation and planning on both sides.

[ExadiNigel]

Yes, to an extent. But if I am caught out by someone doing something unexpected then I would be questioning why I didn't anticipate it rather than blaming someone else. Take ownership of the problem. Anticipating when an HGV may change lane isn't one of the more difficult ones!

Nigel

[vannut]

When I experience bad driving from professionals, usually when articulated lorries pull into lane 2 on the d/c after one flash of yellow light while I am approaching much faster in that lane,

Surely most Large Goods Vehicles are travelling with their speed buffering on the speed limiter, at 56mph, and the national speed limit on motorways is 70mph. This gives a 14mph speed differential.

Is it that difficult to anticipate what a driver is going to do when your speed is 14mph more than theirs? 2 LGVs + closing gap = the rear one is going to pull out. Simples.


If you are 100 yards behind the rear truck, travelling at 70mph, then your gap is closing at about 20.5 feet per second, and at that rate, it will take you about 14.6 seconds to gain that 100 yards. That is a long time.

If you are travelling at more than 70mph, and you can't anticipate when a truck is going to pull out, I would suggest that you are travelling too fast for your capabilities.

If you hit a truck or have any road accident where you are injured and it's not your fault, it still hurts!

[jont]

When I experience bad driving from professionals, usually when articulated lorries pull into lane 2 on the d/c after one flash of yellow light while I am approaching much faster in that lane,

Surely most Large Goods Vehicles are travelling with their speed buffering on the speed limiter, at 56mph, and the national speed limit on motorways is 70mph. This gives a 14mph speed differential.

Is it that difficult to anticipate what a driver is going to do when your speed is 14mph more than theirs? 2 LGVs + closing gap = the rear one is going to pull out. Simples.

Simples? So might is right, is it? Never mind the faster car already established in the lane, let's just barge out, they should have predicted it. In the same way as what you've just said, how hard is it for an HGV driver to see someone approaching in the outside lane and think "hey, I'm about to overtake, why don't I warn them I'm about to move out (or even ask to be let out)". If the HGV driver can't do that, should they be in charge of a 40tonne vehicle? Works both ways

[vannut]

When I experience bad driving from professionals, usually when articulated lorries pull into lane 2 on the d/c after one flash of yellow light while I am approaching much faster in that lane,

Surely most Large Goods Vehicles are travelling with their speed buffering on the speed limiter, at 56mph, and the national speed limit on motorways is 70mph. This gives a 14mph speed differential.

Is it that difficult to anticipate what a driver is going to do when your speed is 14mph more than theirs? 2 LGVs + closing gap = the rear one is going to pull out. Simples.

Simples? So might is right, is it? Never mind the faster car already established in the lane, let's just barge out, they should have predicted it. In the same way as what you've just said, how hard is it for an HGV driver to see someone approaching in the outside lane and think "hey, I'm about to overtake, why don't I warn them I'm about to move out (or even ask to be let out)". If the HGV driver can't do that, should they be in charge of a 40tonne vehicle? Works both ways

I wasn't suggesting that the LGV driver was in the right, and I would agree that many of them are very inconsiderate drivers. I was merely pointing out that you shouldn't be caught out by them using 'right of weight'

[ROG]

I would expect the 'average' driver to be caught as they often drive on 'assumptions' but but an 'advanced' driver ........

[Horse]

When I experience bad driving from professionals, usually when articulated lorries pull into lane 2 on the d/c after one flash of yellow light while I am approaching much faster in that lane

Umm . . . so you know - or should be able to guess - that a lorry is likely to move out, but you still approach much faster?

Perhaps you need to re-think your driving . . .

I'm not talking about flying along at 90 with a roundabout approaching where heavies need to change lanes or some other situation where you can expect that HGVs may be changing lanes - you seem to assume I'm some sort of muppet.

Hey - which of us typed 'approaching much faster'?

If you're not expecting any driver to change lanes when there's a space to go into - whether or not they signal first - then, yes, you do need to read Mind Driving again. Try pages 52 & 53 for starters

[MGF]

I'm not talking about flying along at 90 with a roundabout approaching where heavies need to change lanes or some other situation where you can expect that HGVs may be changing lanes - you seem to assume I'm some sort of muppet.

Although some of the comments have been a little harsh I think the point is that careful and safe drivers can still be caught out by other's poor driving however as 'advanced' drivers we ought to looking to minimise these events. I must admit that I find LGVs the most difficult to predict as they often follow very closely and overtake from the same position. It still happens to me but much less since I have really tried to anticipate their overtaking.

[ROG]

I must admit that I find LGVs the most difficult to predict as they often follow very closely and overtake from the same position.

Yes they do and I can tell you why -
They compromise safety for the convenience of others when what they should do is to put safety first and pull out before the minimum safety gap is reached.

This means they get closer & closer & closer to the truck in front and when they think they are too close which is usually when the slipstream of the truck in front is assisting them - yes, THAT CLOSE !! - they pull out.

It is a stupid way of driving but that is what many do - just watch from a motorway overbridge for 30 mins and count them !!!

Instructors and driver trainers do try and inform them of this unsafe practice but they still put convenience over safety - you should see the face of a driver when I suggest we pull out now or we will be getting too close - the resistance is easy to note.

[TripleS]

Although some of the comments have been a little harsh I think the point is that careful and safe drivers can still be caught out by other's poor driving however as 'advanced' drivers we ought to looking to minimise these events. I must admit that I find LGVs the most difficult to predict as they often follow very closely and overtake from the same position. It still happens to me but much less since I have really tried to anticipate their overtaking.

Advanced drivers ought not to be caught out too often by the bad driving exhibited by others, but we might also bear in mind that the 'advanced' folk also drop clangers at times, and they also add to our problems, and I'm not suggesting you were disregarding that; but some people seem to do it.

Extract from PH a few days ago:

"I was on the way into work on Monday, when I happened across a nasty looking accident which had only just happened because the people were still extracting heads from arses and getting out of mangled cars. I'm a trained first aider so I pulled up away from the carnage and went to see if anyone needed urgent help or if they wanted an ambulance. The guy who had caused the crash by piling his merc E class into the back of a C2 driven by a very shocked young lady, was banging on loudly about how it couldn't possibly be his fault because he was an advanced driver and had all the badges on his car to prove it. I had to laugh (quietly to myself)."

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[jasonh]

Blimey, lots of things. From some of the messages above you'd think I'd been hitting HGVs every day and it's interesting the assumptions that have been made about the situations I intended to reference. I say intended to reference because, mea culpa, I don't seem to have made it clear regarding specifically what I was meaning, but I still think the sort of assumptions implicit in some of the responses are telling (and say something about why some people are put off AD, but that's for another thread). Some of the posters seem to have filled in the details for themselves and generated a picture of my driving based on those fabled assumptions that we try to avoid in our driving, but as I said, I take the rap for not making things clearer.

I'm well able to anticipate that a heavy closing on another heavy may pull out, etc. I'm talking about situations where I am approaching in lane 2 (of 2) and have a differential in speed on a heavy in lane 1, generally one which is slipstreaming behind another and has been doing so for the whole of my approach (and I will have noted them early), and the HGV gives a single flash and rolls out into lane 2. I will have moved out to overtake with plenty of gap and made my intentions clear, attempted to anticipate behaviour of the HGV driver as described by others above, etc. Of course I've never been in a collision on the road in this situation (or any other so far). I'm on about the 'surprise' moves (where you are passing the truck or as near as damn it) that you can get despite all of the above, and which I'd defy anyone to anticipate. On at least one occasion heavies have moved out while I am alongside and I have been in a position where I could have been crushed into the barrier if I hadn't taken appropriate action.

Sorry if my description was so unclear that it looked like I am flying up to HGVs with no anticipation and no consideration that they might pull out - that is certainly not the case! If my driving was that poor then perhaps I would have actually been in a collision in one of these situations (and it would certainly be in large part my fault - yes, advanced drivers shouldn't be using excuses that others might use). Reading all the stuff above, I am not committing any of the sins listed so I guess my mistake is not to make the description abundantly clear. My original point is that HGVs pulling out with a brief flash of the indicator and seemingly no look in the mirror, or ignorance of what they saw, are an example of poor driving by professional drivers.

[Horse]

Although some of the comments have been a little harsh

If my original post or follow-up were harsh, then I apologise for that. Brevity, sometimes, isn't beneficial.

I think the point is that careful and safe drivers can still be caught out by other's poor driving however as 'advanced' drivers we ought to looking to minimise these events.

Who is it here with the sig line of "Drivers avoid crashes, Advanced drivers avoid those situations" or suchlike?

. . . but I still think the sort of assumptions implicit in some of the responses are telling (and say something about why some people are put off AD, but that's for another thread).

Do you mean the comments following your post, or the PH quote "couldn't possibly be his fault because he was an advanced driver and had all the badges on his car to prove it"?


If the former, then perhaps, again, the brevity may have given the impression that's how I'd have dealt with the situation at the roadside. Actually, it's more likely to have been:

"I noticed you were travelling a lot faster than those two lorries in the left lane, and I was concerned about how you could have reacted if one changed lanes. Do you think you had any options?

"Would any of those would have been a better one to take?"

So - again, if the former - feel free to fill the gaps and we'll 'talk' through it


'Serious' head on again: I'll often drop to a lower gear before passing an HGV just in case it does start to move. And it's worth checking for a foreign-reg plate before committing to pass - some have dreadful off-side views from their mirrors. The HA/VOSA have recently given out 40,000 Fresnel lenses at ports, to go in the r.h. door window, to cover the blind spot.

[ExadiNigel]

.... And it's worth checking for a foreign-reg plate before committing to pass - some have dreadful off-side views from their mirrors. The HA/VOSA have recently given out 40,000 Fresnel lenses at ports, to go in the r.h. door window, to cover the blind spot.

Not just foreign number plate lorries. Apparently there are left hand drive lorries registered in this country. Another thing to try looking for is the kerb/proximity mirror sited at the top of the door window. This is on the opposite side to the driver.

Nigel