advanced driving books

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving and training for LGV, HGV, PCV, Minibus's etc type vehicles.

Postby ROG » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:10 pm


kwaka jack wrote:I'm currently half way through the VOSA driving times and tacho rules I got off the interweb they don't make it easy

Forget the RTWTD stuff because no authority bothers with it and there are no sanctions in the VOSA sanctions list for any breaches of it - its been that way since it started over 5 years ago !!
Some blue chip companies give infringements for it but they are not legal or tacho ones just company policy ones


Would you like me to make up some senarios for EU regs driving and then let you tell me if they are legal or not and if not, why not?
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Postby kwaka jack » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:45 pm


Why not lol this will be interesting
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Postby ROG » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:42 pm


kwaka jack wrote:Why not lol this will be interesting

As you are the OP of this thread then I'll go ahead on here .... :D

D = Driving
OW = Other Work
B = Break
POA - not bothering as Break can be used instead and has less rules

This 4 day jubilee off
WED
0600 - 0630 OW
0630 - 1000 D
1000 - 1030 B
1030 - 1130 D
1130 - 1145 B
1145 - 1415 D
1415 - 1500 OW
1500 - 1600 D
1600 - 1645 B
1645 - 1845 D
1845 - 1900 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED DAILY REST?

THU
0500 – 0515 OW
0515 – 0745 D
0745 – 0800 OW
0800 – 0930 D
0930 – 1000 OW
1000 – 1045 B
1045 – 1200 D
1200 – 1300 OW
1300 – 1430 D
1430 – 1445 OW
1445 – 1615 D
1615 – 1700 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED DAILY REST?

FRI
0600 – 0630 OW
0630 – 0930 D
0930 – 1030 B
1030 – 1200 D
1200 – 1230 B
1230 – 1400 D
1400 – 1430 OW
1430 – 1730 D
1730 – 2100 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED DAILY REST?

SAT
0730 – 0800 OW
0800 – 1030 D
1030 – 1100 OW
1100 – 1300 D
1300 – 1330 B
1330 – 1400 D
1400 – 1500 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED WEEKLY REST?

MON 0600 TO 1900
TUE 0800 TO 1700
WED 0600 TO 1800
THU 0500 TO 2000
FRI 0400 TO 1800
SAT 0700 TO 1200

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED WEEKLY REST?

MON 0600 TO 2100
TUE 0600 TO 2100
WED 0600 TO 2100
THU 0600 TO 1900
FRI 0500 TO 1800

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED WEEKLY REST?

MON 0600 ..............
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Postby kwaka jack » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:34 am


Wednesday =Full rest day
Driving + other work + rest = 13 hours, Daily rest = 11 hours

Thursday = Full rest day
Driving + other work + rest = 12.5 hours, Daily rest = 11.5 hours

Friday = Reduced rest day
Driving + other work + rest = 16 hours, daily rest = 10.5 hours

Saturday = Full rest day
Driving + other work + rest = 7.5, daily rest = 16.5 hours

Weekly driving 1 = Reduced weekly rest
Driving + other work + rest = 69, Weekly rest to weekly 2 start time (0600) = 39 hours

Weekly driving 2 = Full weekly rest
Driving + other work + rest = 71, Weekly rest to weekly 3 start time (0600) = 60 hours

Wednesday rest break had the 30 minute break first and the 15 minute second is that the correct way round?

I bet there all wrong :cry: lol
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Postby ROG » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:31 am


The bits in RED are incorrect - can you say why?
You got the first one :D

ROG wrote:
kwaka jack wrote:Why not lol this will be interesting

As you are the OP of this thread then I'll go ahead on here .... :D

D = Driving
OW = Other Work
B = Break
POA - not bothering as Break can be used instead and has less rules

This 4 day jubilee off
WED
0600 - 0630 OW
0630 - 1000 D
1000 - 1030 B
1030 - 1130 D
1130 - 1145 B
1145 - 1415 D
1415 - 1500 OW
1500 - 1600 D
1600 - 1645 B
1645 - 1845 D
1845 - 1900 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED DAILY REST? = 10 HOURS

THU
0500 – 0515 OW
0515 – 0745 D
0745 – 0800 OW
0800 – 0930 D
0930 – 1000 OW
1000 – 1045 B
1045 – 1200 D
1200 – 1300 OW
1300 – 1430 D
1430 – 1445 OW
1445 – 1615 D
1615 – 1700 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED DAILY REST? = 13 HOURS

FRI
0600 – 0630 OW
0630 – 0930 D
0930 – 1030 B
1030 – 1200 D
1200 – 1230 B
1230 – 1400 D
1400 – 1430 OW
1430 – 1730 D
1730 – 2100 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED DAILY REST? = 10.5 HOURS

SAT
0730 – 0800 OW
0800 – 1030 D
1030 – 1100 OW
1100 – 1300 D
1300 – 1330 B
1330 – 1400 D
1400 – 1500 OW

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED WEEKLY REST? = 39 HOURS

MON 0600 TO 1900
TUE 0800 TO 1700
WED 0600 TO 1800
THU 0500 TO 2000
FRI 0400 TO 1800
SAT 0700 TO 1200

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED WEEKLY REST? = 42 HOURS

MON 0600 TO 2100
TUE 0600 TO 2100
WED 0600 TO 2100
THU 0600 TO 1900
FRI 0500 TO 1800

IS THIS A FULL OR REDUCED WEEKLY REST? = 60 HOURS

MON 0600 ..............

Are those two reduced weekly rests in a row legal? - please give reason for answer

Has any payback from a reduced weekly rest been paid back?
Last edited by ROG on Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby kwaka jack » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:22 pm


Yes they are legal IF they are compensated on the third week from the first reduced weekly rest period so an extra 9 hours will have to be added to the 3rd weeks 45 hours weekly rest.......I think. :D
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Postby ROG » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:07 pm


kwaka jack wrote:Yes they are legal IF they are compensated on the third week from the first reduced weekly rest period so an extra 9 hours will have to be added to the 3rd weeks 45 hours weekly rest.......I think. :D

That is not the reason those two reduced weekly rests in a row are legal - the regs state that there must be at least one full weekly rest IN every other week or as it is written ... IN any two consecutive weeks

what is wrong with the other bits marked in red?

All the answers are to be gained from the regulations but understanding those regs is usually the stumbling point
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Postby ROG » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:16 pm


If getting really stuck then I am happy to point out the answers as well as the reasons why
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Postby kwaka jack » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:27 pm


ROG wrote:
kwaka jack wrote:Yes they are legal IF they are compensated on the third week from the first reduced weekly rest period so an extra 9 hours will have to be added to the 3rd weeks 45 hours weekly rest.......I think. :D

That is not the reason those two reduced weekly rests in a row are legal - the regs state that there must be at least one full weekly rest IN every other week or as it is written ... IN any two consecutive weeks

what is wrong with the other bits marked in red?

All the answers are to be gained from the regulations but understanding those regs is usually the stumbling point



First red mark, Not enough daily rest (8 hours), Minimum 9 hours daily rest 2 times a week.

Second red mark, Maximum working hours (56 hours) has been exceeded.

With the weekly rest hours could it go.... week 1 50 hours weekly rest...week 2 36 hours weekly rest...week 3 40 hours weekly rest.....week 4 52 hours weekly rest?

Or does it have to be reduced,full recuded, full?

A few of them I struggled with, but if you fancy it I'm happy for you to keep sending questions on any subject relating to LGV's....I rather enjoyed working those out and a good way to learn instead of just reading something and not putting it to use.
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Postby ROG » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:48 pm


I'll go through each one in turn ...

1000 - 1030 B
1030 - 1130 D
1130 - 1145 B
You got that one ok - the breaks should be 15 then 30

This one was tricky ...
FRI
0600 – 0630 OW
0630 – 0930 D
0930 – 1030 B
1030 – 1200 D
1200 – 1230 B
1230 – 1400 D
1400 – 1430 OW
1430 – 1730 D
1730 – 2100 OW
There was a break of at least 45 mins from 0930 to 1030 which resets the driving time to a new 4.5 hour period
After that the driver did 6 hours of driving without taking the 45 or 15+30 break which they should have taken at or before 1600
The 1 hour break between 0930 to 1030 cannot be used as a 15 min break - daft but that is the way the law is worded

MON 0600 TO 1900
TUE 0800 TO 1700
WED 0600 TO 1800
THU 0500 TO 2000
FRI 0400 TO 1800
The daily rest between 2000 THU and 0400 FRI is only 8 hours and must be at least 9 hours

MON 0600 TO 2100
TUE 0600 TO 2100
WED 0600 TO 2100
THU 0600 TO 1900
FRI 0500 TO 1800
The maximum 3 reduced daily rests that are allowed between weekly rests have been taken on MON, TUE & WED but the daily rest between THU 1900 and FRI 0500 is only 10 hours so that too is a reduced daily rest now making 4 reduced daily rests betwen weekly rests which is illegal

When looking at daily rests you not only have to look at the shift time and take that from 24 hours but also have to look at the finish time on one day and the restart time for the next day to see if that complies with the daily rest requirements

There are two sorts of 'weekly rules' - those that are for the fixed week and those that are for between weekly rest periods so make sure you are looking at the right set of rules when deciding if something is legal or not

A 'week' or 'fixed week' is mon 0000 to sun 2400 or sunday midnight to sunday midnight

WEEKLY RESTS:-
Looking at what I posted it seems at first glance to be breaking the rules on weekly rests because the rules say that at least one full weekly rest must be IN every two consecutive weeks (every other week) and I have 2 reduced weekly rests which follow each other!!

As long as a weekly rest is IN a week (see definition of a week above) by at least 1 minute then it can counted for that week
If a weekly rest spans the sunday midnight so it is IN the week previous and the week coming up then it can be used for either week BUT a weekly rest can only be used ONCE

At the start of that long senario I put - This 4 day jubilee off
Those 4 days off are well over 90 hours or 45 hours x 2 so the first 45 hours can be used as a full weekly rest for the week previous and the last 45 hours can be used as a full weekly rest for the forthcoming week

For the first week of our senario we have a full weekly rest at the start of the week and a reduced weekly rest at the end of the week - either of those can be the weekly rest to be counted for that week so we will count the full one at the start leaving the reduced weekly rest for the next week in our senario

The second week in our senario has a reduced weekly rest at both the start and end of the week so lets choose the one at the end because it is the longer one of 42 hours leaving only 3 hours to pay back

We now have a full weekly rest for the first week and a reduced weekly rest for the second week so the third week MUST have a full weekly rest

The 39 hour reduced weekly rest has not been counted as the weekly rest for any week but must be there because there is a rule which states that a driver cannot go more than 6x24hours or 144 hours without taking a weekly rest

That un-counted reduced weekly rest does not need compensating for (paying back) although it is still a reduced weekly rest period for the 144 hour rule

At the end of our third week we have a full weekly rest of 60 hours so the 3 hours we owed are easily paid back

Hours from a reduced weekly rest in week 1 need to be paid back by the end of the third week following that reduction or in other words fully paid back before sunday midnight of week 4

Those 3 hours we owed could have been added to a daily rest if there was enough hours in that daily rest to do so
If we had a reduced daily rest available and 3 hours oowing then having a daily rest of 12 hours would have that sorted

Its not easy is it ? :lol:
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Postby Kevin » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:43 pm


ROG wrote:Its not easy is it ? :lol:


No, it's not easy. ROG (I suspect, no offence!) and I are old enough to remember Jimmy Young's lunchtime radio show on Radio 2. He used to have a legal eagle on the show once a week to answer listeners' questions. One week he had a question on drivers' hours. I recall him saying that in all his years in the legal profession, the law on drivers' hours was one of the most complex that he'd ever come across. :lol:

In some respects, it's a bit easier now in that reductions in daily rests don't have to be paid back, but it's still quite complex.

Now, however, we also have the WTD regs to contend with. VOSA don't seem too bothered with them at the moment. Unfortunately, some companies are using so-called WTD infringements to chastise their driving workforce. I'd better not get my soap box out again. :evil: :lol:
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Postby kwaka jack » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:08 pm


No its easy :? :? :? and as kev mentioned the subject extremely complex and one which I'm not gonna attempt to learn completly just yet lol....if I ever learn it. Got any slightly less complicated knowledge to share? :D
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Postby ROG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:11 am


kwaka jack wrote:No its easy :? :? :? and as kev mentioned the subject extremely complex and one which I'm not gonna attempt to learn completly just yet lol....if I ever learn it. Got any slightly less complicated knowledge to share? :D

You gotta learn it if driving under those rules

Keeping to basics will help and easy to do if driving mon to fri one week and mon to sat the next
That will give you alternating full and reduced weekly rests
It also means the 'week' and 'between weekly rests' rules run together

Any shift that goes over 13 hours will be a reduced daily rest
Less than 11 hours off between shifts is a reduced daily rest

Driving breaks rules are easy - just watch out for that first break if splitting the 45 so it does not get to more than 44 mins

RTWTD can be ignored - not checked upon by any authority
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