Another newbie

A place for new members to introduce themselves and give some background information as to their experience with driving, likes, dislikes etc. It is advisable to post here first before posting to other forum's on the site.

Postby M6L11 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:00 pm


Hi everyone,

Saw this forum mentioned a few times in the AD section of PH so thought I'd come on over for a look. :) I'm a 32 year old bloke now living in Liverpool and I have had my full UK car license for 10 years. I took a couple of rides out with an IAM observer after passing (whom I met through a driving forum, not through the IAM) and didn't take anything further.

A rekindling of my interest in AD and the system of car control led me to a day out with RideDrive today. Mixed feelings atm being honest as at times, and overall, I've ended up feeling like a worse driver than when I started lol. Despite being familiar with the system and having good eyes up / main beam observation there was a lot to take in and do differently from my usual habits all at the same time and so suddenly. By that I mean I spent ten years doing 20k to 50k+ a year with a clean license and no accidents, then suddenly I have to do ten things differently from before, all at the same time, while remembering to look ahead and actually still drive. It was like being a learner balancing the clutch, gears and steering all over again haha

The instructor (ex police instructor) said I have good natural ability and car control, invisible gear changes and decent awareness but we needed to work on steering and approach to hazards. On very mild bends on country B roads (NSL or below) I would generally just use rotational steering but today I had to lift my hand up the wheel and then pull/push even for the most minute kink in the road which felt unnatural and a waste of movement when I could have done the 3mm adjustment just as well from the quarter to three position.

I was also shown I was seeing hazards from far away, but only actually slowing on the brakes at a 'normal' distance and then changing gear etc. I was shown how to position, use acceleration sense to slow down WAY earlier, then take a gear and sail through which did feel nicer and more controlled once I'd tried it.

The only other issue he picked up on was not offsiding strongly enough (I'd hug or slightly straddle the centre lines instead of fully offsiding), and we worked on this for an hour maybe. Much better car control, acceleration sense and 'decorum' now I think so that's a plus. :)

I was amazed to see how I was previously a 'drive to the speed limit if it was safe' driver to someone accidentally bumbling along at 40mph in 50mph limits because I was so overloaded processing information and steering etc in the new way my brain couldn't cope with doing it all at once AND keeping up a hefty speed lol.

After lunch I was told I'd get no input and to just drive again (as per the morning assessment). I was amazed when the instructor pointed out I was now automatically positioning boldly, offsiding fully and using the 'new' gear change approach without realising it.... and was now 'making full and good progress' in derestricted roads while actually FEELING like I was driving even SLOWER.

He used the 'like a swan peddling frantically underneath but graceful on top' analogy, and said because I'd smoothed out my inputs and extended my obs that I was naturally carrying better speed suited to the conditions without being bogged down. Hence a faster, but smoother ('slower feeling') drive. Pretty pleased with that, though I think I'll sleep like the dead tonight!!

Anyway I'm now realising after ten years of driving that my DSA test only showed me how to OPERATE a car. Now I'm learning how to DRIVE one. And it's fun! :) It was a nice sense of accomplishment to walk away with a nationally recognised qualification for my troubles too (level 2 NQF/OCN award for 'Introduction to Advanced Driving').

Thanks for having me.
M6L11
 

Postby akirk » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:27 pm


welcome - it is a journey most of us are on, and the realisation of how much there is to learn is both exciting and daunting - but the reward comes in the feeling that step by step there is mastery of new skills and seeing that it does make a difference...

enjoy learning! what will you do next?

Alasdair
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Postby M6L11 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:28 pm


chriskay wrote:Welcome to the forum. The feeling that you're driving worse after a session with an advanced instructor is very common; most people find that they need to un-learn a lot. I've a lot of time for Ride-Drive; I've had a couple of sessions with them. Good luck and, most importantly, enjoy the journey.


Thanks very much. I'm glad I'm not the only one, then! To be fair the instructor did say I was being too self-critical and that reflecting on one's journey/actions wasn't the same as constantly self-criticising and nitpicking over every action. He did also say that my independent afternoon drive was a big improvement on the morning 'let's see how you normally drive before I instruct you' assessment.

I've had a couple of short journeys tonight (errands) and did notice I was thinking way further ahead than normal and found myself muttering things like 'taking a position of safety away from the nearside junction' and 'off the gas, off the gas, drive drive drive' to myself a lot.... :lol:
Last edited by M6L11 on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby M6L11 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:32 pm


akirk wrote:welcome - it is a journey most of us are on, and the realisation of how much there is to learn is both exciting and daunting - but the reward comes in the feeling that step by step there is mastery of new skills and seeing that it does make a difference...

enjoy learning! what will you do next?

Alasdair


Thank you. :) I'm booked in for kidney surgery this weekend (one of the reasons my wife sent me to RideDrive instead of me going through IAM or RoADA), and after what I've seen and heard I think I may stay on the private instruction route for now. I'm lucky in that an ex police instructor (not the one from today) has offered to take me out a couple of times so I'll be making full use of that - and supplying obligatory distilled spirits as thanks - once I'm out of hospital and recovered.

After that who knows? I would like to get up to Class 1 / Gold / F1rst standard and then maybe some more advanced training along the lines of Cadence (though they're MILES away) and specialist courses. There's no IAM in my area but I do believe there's a RoADA group about 15 miles away. I'll dip my toe in a few pools and see what appeals.
M6L11
 

Postby waremark » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:34 pm


Sounds like an amazing amount of progress for one day out. Well done you.

At the risk of confusing you, you should know that this instructor's ideas about steering are highly controversial in the AD world. While some mostly traditionalist experts agree with him, I would say that more of the best experts think that fixed grip steering has more advantages at higher speeds. The current edition of Roadcraft, the police driving manual, recommends the use of fixed grip steering for small changes of direction.
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Postby M6L11 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:42 pm


waremark wrote:Sounds like an amazing amount of progress for one day out. Well done you.

At the risk of confusing you, you should know that this instructor's ideas about steering are highly controversial in the AD world. While some mostly traditionalist experts agree with him, I would say that more of the best experts think that fixed grip steering has more advantages at higher speeds. The current edition of Roadcraft, the police driving manual, recommends the use of fixed grip steering for small changes of direction.


I was actually aware of that, but I didn't want to spend the day picking at his instruction. I took it all in, tried to follow his lead, and took what I could from it all. To be fair (regarding the 'amazing amount of progress for one day out') I had already ordered and read Roadcraft, How to Drive (Ben Collins) and Advanced Driving by 'Reg Local' and been practising best as I could the exercises and ideas for myself in the last few weeks. Add in copious amounts of YouTube AD videos of blue light runs, advanced driving lessons (including some longish clips by RideDrive instructors) and I did have a bit of a head start...

I'm just worried about using some of the things I learnt (eg offsiding) incorrectly so I'll be moderate in the things I add in to my daily drives until I've taken more instruction and have more of a 'feel' for it under supervision. Rather than than unleash upon other road users a possibly half-cocked technique that leads me (and them) into more danger than 'normal' driving. But maybe I'm just being a tad too cautious. I dunno. Either way I feel like I've moved on a bit and I'm enjoying it, so that's something.

Already passengers have randomly commented this month (since I started applying what I'd read) along the lines of 'What you doing different? It's like being in a limo' and 'Why does all the traffic seem to magically glide away from you, while you sail through at speed, whilst everyone else is nose to tail and braking?'. I'll take that as a compliment lol. :lol:
M6L11
 

Postby M6L11 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:49 pm


Sorry but just remembered this:

One thing I did get 'told off' for was checking mirrors on approach to a lower limit, then gently and progressively braking to that lower limit in time for crossing the signposts. IAM told me I should do this so (1) I'm not speeding when I can't otherwise "make progress" - i.e. in a busy 30 limit, and (2) so that I show brake lights to those behind in case they sleep drive into the back of me as I slow down.

The instructor told me that was stupid, counter productive and causes concertina braking behind. I should actually acknowledge the sign from afar as part of my obs then just use acceleration sense to slow down, and if I'm over for a bit after crossing them so be it (bar any speed cameras). It's not my job to drive for other people, they should see me slowing down and adjust.

I did think along the lines of 'but isn't that what AD actually IS - defensively driving around the possibility of other people's poor driving/mistakes?', but I didn't say anything.
M6L11
 

Postby jont » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:49 am


M6L11 wrote:Sorry but just remembered this:

One thing I did get 'told off' for was checking mirrors on approach to a lower limit, then gently and progressively braking to that lower limit in time for crossing the signposts. IAM told me I should do this so (1) I'm not speeding when I can't otherwise "make progress" - i.e. in a busy 30 limit, and (2) so that I show brake lights to those behind in case they sleep drive into the back of me as I slow down.

The instructor told me that was stupid, counter productive and causes concertina braking behind. I should actually acknowledge the sign from afar as part of my obs then just use acceleration sense to slow down, and if I'm over for a bit after crossing them so be it (bar any speed cameras). It's not my job to drive for other people, they should see me slowing down and adjust.

I did think along the lines of 'but isn't that what AD actually IS - defensively driving around the possibility of other people's poor driving/mistakes?', but I didn't say anything.


I think here (like many things in AD), it depends. If you're actually slowing down to 30 for passing a 30 sign with cars following, I tend to use just enough brakes to make the brake lights come on - as otherwise many people will assume you'll continue at the default 35-and-a-bit that so many do.

You'll find police drivers will often brake as late as they possibly can to get down from NSL+ to 30 to maximise progress. Eventually it becomes a personal style thing - how much/firmly do I want to be braking?


The more people you drive with, the more different styles and pet "hates" you'll come across from different instructors. If you're really unhappy, it's worth asking them to explain why they want you to adopt a particular style - and sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. This can be even more true with IAM/RoSPA observers. The examiners tend to be less dogmatic.
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Postby martine » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 am


Excellent post M6 and you have a great attitude to developing your driving. Whereabouts are you?
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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Postby hir » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:42 am


jont wrote:
M6L11 wrote:Sorry but just remembered this:

The instructor told me that was stupid, counter productive and causes concertina braking behind. I should actually acknowledge the sign from afar as part of my obs then just use acceleration sense to slow down, and if I'm over for a bit after crossing them so be it (bar any speed cameras).


The more people you drive with, the more different styles and pet "hates" you'll come across from different instructors. If you're really unhappy, it's worth asking them to explain why they want you to adopt a particular style - and sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. This can be even more true with IAM/RoSPA observers. The examiners tend to be less dogmatic.


+1

"You MUST use pull-push; you MUST slow down for a 30mph limit like this..." This particular instructor seems to be sorely afflicted with the... "this is how we do it in police driving school so that's how you MUST do it. There's no other way!" Like you say, just listen to it, take it in and then do whatever suits you best. If fixed grip steering suits you out on the open road then use it. If you decide that braking before a change in speed limit is the best course of action... then just do it. Your advanced driving courses and coaching will empower you to make these sort of decisions for yourself in due course. When one embarks on the advanced driving way of doing things one is still of the minset of what are the "rules" I must follow. There are no "rules" there's only principles, and most police driving school instructors don't seem to understand that.

It's encouraging to read your posting as you're obviously keen to improve your driving and it sounds as though you're doing well.

Good luck
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Postby hir » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:44 am


martine wrote: Whereabouts are you?


Liverpool - see original post
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Postby martine » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:15 pm


Just in case you're tempted by the IAM - there are 4 groups that cover Liverpool...

http://www.wirraliam.co.uk/
http://www.seftonadvancedmotorists.co.uk/
http://www.shgam.org.uk/
http://www.warram.org.uk/
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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Postby M6L11 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:46 pm


Thanks ever so much for the replies, everyone. It's nice to finally be in an environment where people not only share my enthusiasm but understand what I'm jabbering on about. Have you ever tried to discuss the benefits of rotational versus PP steering with Joe Soap? It doesn't end well and you get a lot of funny looks. :mrgreen:

I'll be looking to carry on with some private tuition but am now looking at the St Helens and Southport IAM groups. I am originally from St Helens but spent 10 years living in Southport and it offers some lovely roads. At the end of the day for little money it's extra tools in the box so it's gotta be worth doing. I do prefer the RoADA grading and retest practices but it appears IAM are better catered for around here after all.

I'll look forward to joining you all in the main boards. Thanks so much again for the warm welcome.
M6L11
 

Postby martine » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:13 pm


M6L11 wrote:I do prefer the RoADA grading and retest practices but it appears IAM are better catered for around here after all.

Yes the compulsory ROSPA 3 year retest is a significant difference but of course there's nothing to stop you retaking the IAM test should you so wish. You may not be aware the IAM has graded advanced tests now...the normal pass and the higher-level, 'F1rst" pass - approx. equal to ROSPA Gold.

Whatever route you take I'm sure you'll benefit from driving with different people and picking and choosing what works for you.

Shame you 'up North' as there seem to be more ADUK driving days further South - they are a great way to develop your driving with a great bunch of people form here (TripleS excluded :wink: )
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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Postby M6L11 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:15 pm


martine wrote:
M6L11 wrote:I do prefer the RoADA grading and retest practices but it appears IAM are better catered for around here after all.

Yes the compulsory ROSPA 3 year retest is a significant difference but of course there's nothing to stop you retaking the IAM test should you so wish. You may not be aware the IAM has graded advanced tests now...the normal pass and the higher-level, 'F1rst" pass - approx. equal to ROSPA Gold.

Whatever route you take I'm sure you'll benefit from driving with different people and picking and choosing what works for you.

Shame you 'up North' as there seem to be more ADUK driving days further South - they are a great way to develop your driving with a great bunch of people form here (TripleS excluded :wink: )


It seems the IAM has made some progress then. :) I'd love to attend but as you say I'm a little far away even if I do enjoy driving lol. Thanks again for the kind words. :)
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