Offsiding and straightlining - cut from 'Tailgating' thread

[GJD]

At what level etc. should offsiding be introduced, what skills need to be secure?

Are you at the wrong level of the GDE matrix there? Isn't it more relevant to ask what attitudes need to be secure?

[Horse]

http://www.driving.org/services/memberbenefits

Just a thoughtvon 'responsibility': when instructing I have several £M of liability insurance cover.

What risk(s) does that cover?

[Horse]

At what level etc. should offsiding be introduced, what skills need to be secure?

Are you at the wrong level of the GDE matrix there? Isn't it more relevant to ask what attitudes need to be secure?

I would be incorporating elements of that even during off-road skills training.

However, how do you see it working. Lets be fair, I've posted a fair bit today, it's about time others chipped in. After all, if it's a reasonable thing to do, then it should be easy for observers, instructors and tutors to produce suitable guidance on this, surely?

[GJD]

Many of the things mentioned above are quite forgiving if you get them wrong- take speed as an example, you might drive at an inappropriate speed down a busy street with lots of walking ipods whilst messing with your aircon and satnav (I see this behaviour everyday) and 99.9% of the time nothing happens.

What am I misunderstanding there? The reason nothing happens most of the time is not because that sort of behaviour is very forgiving when it goes wrong!

Most drivers do not use the width of the road when negotiating corners because (and I could be wrong) Its not as forgiving as the above mentioned if it should go wrong because other road users do not expect you to be there!

I don't think that's why they don't do it. I think they don't do it because it hasn't occurred to them that they could, or they think it's not allowed or, in the case of passing an obstacle, they think it's a necessary evil, to be minimised at all costs. Of course it will end badly if you confuse "The whole width of the road is available to me for consideration" with "It is not important which side of the road I use". But is that confusion likely just from someone having their eyes opened to the idea that they might be better off sometimes if they didn't feel the need to hug their side of the road quite so bloody insistently all the time?

[Horse]

You mean something like how DSA (as was) expect them to?

As long as they drive within their limits, why is it unsafe?

[daz6215]

Watch "How to ride like a Police biker! Advanced motorcycle riding techniques and skills" on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYh1FWY ... ata_player

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this video, in particular the use of both offside of the road and even offside within lane with oncoming traffic. Also, they use offside for 'safety', but appear to maintain speed. How does that seem to AD viewers?

I personally think the ride has more emphasis on making progress and positioning is being used to aide this, I wouldn't sacrifice safety for position as the rider appeared to do early on, this may have been as a result of being committed with speed into the corner and he simply didn't have the time to bring it back across sufficiently without compromising his stability. However I'm not a biker so I could be wrong

[daz6215]

What am I misunderstanding there? The reason nothing happens most of the time is not because that sort of behaviour is very forgiving when it goes wrong!

I think you miss my point, It's about predictability for other road users! We all expect to see the things you mentioned and therefore when I am out walking down the road I wouldn't be surprised to see someone toeing it at 50 in a 30, so on that occasion the driver got away with it (it was wrong of him but his choice of speed was forgiving) because I was perhaps to some degree expecting this type of behaviour.

I don't think that's why they don't do it. I think they don't do it because it hasn't occurred to them that they could, or they think it's not allowed or, in the case of passing an obstacle, they think it's a necessary evil, to be minimised at all costs. Of course it will end badly if you confuse "The whole width of the road is available to me for consideration" with "It is not important which side of the road I use". But is that confusion likely just from someone having their eyes opened to the idea that they might be better off sometimes if they didn't feel the need to hug their side of the road quite so bloody insistently all the time?

Or perhaps they are happy going from A to B a fraction of a second later than you.

[GJD]

What am I misunderstanding there? The reason nothing happens most of the time is not because that sort of behaviour is very forgiving when it goes wrong!

I think you miss my point, It's about predictability for other road users! We all expect to see the things you mentioned and therefore when I am out walking down the road I wouldn't be surprised to see someone toeing it at 50 in a 30, so on that occasion the driver got away with it (it was wrong of him but his choice of speed was forgiving) because I was perhaps to some degree expecting this type of behaviour.

Ah. I see what you mean. That's an interesting way of looking at things. If I do something really stupid, it might be considered a bit less stupid depending on how many other people sometimes do it too. I think I'm going to have to spend some time with that idea before I know how I feel about it . I don't immediately get a warm cuddly feeling that it and I are definitely going to be friends though...

Or perhaps they are happy going from A to B a fraction of a second later than you.

I haven't been approaching this from the point of view of getting places a fraction of a second faster. That is really an optional benefit that is entirely up to the individual driver and I doubt that measure of success would be, "do they do it the same as me?" I've been coming from the point of view that having your mind closed to the idea of considering the full width of the road is definitely a bad thing - see examples earlier in thread. Once you've opened you mind so as to address the safety issue, whatever other benefits, if any, you choose to derive from your new-found freedom of thought is up to you.

[Horse]

As I may have mentioned once or many times . . . I'm not anti- - but have reservations.

Regarding drivers' expectations, search for paper (I think it was presented at a Rospa conference) called 'what do drivers do at junctions'.

'Look for offside vehicles' isn't.

[daz6215]

Ah. I see what you mean. That's an interesting way of looking at things. If I do something really stupid,

Other road user may not react as you think they might if they are confronted with something they dont expect- like a vehicle coming towards on the wrong side of the road

[waremark]

At what level etc. should offsiding be introduced, what skills need to be secure?

Are you at the wrong level of the GDE matrix there? Isn't it more relevant to ask what attitudes need to be secure?

I would be incorporating elements of that even during off-road skills training.

However, how do you see it working. Lets be fair, I've posted a fair bit today, it's about time others chipped in. After all, if it's a reasonable thing to do, then it should be easy for observers, instructors and tutors to produce suitable guidance on this, surely?

The powers that be at the IAM obviously don't consider that it is easy - that is why they have issued an unequivocal statement that crossing a centre line 'to obtain a better view' is not acceptable on an IAM test (I say it is unequivocal, but there is in fact some uncertaintly about whether crossing a centre line to maintain an existing view is also not acceptable - I do not think the person at the IAM who wrote the unequivocal rule intended to make a distinction between obtaining a view and maintaining a view, but this aspect is open to debate).

There is a very great deal to consider in deciding whether it is safe to be on a part of the road which oncoming traffic would expect to be available for them - this is one of the reasons why overtaking is potentially dangerous. By comparison with other driving manoeuvers I suspect that taking this decision requires quicker/better observation, anticipation and planning combined with good judgement of speed and distance than most other manoeuvers.

I am sort of with GJD that 'offsiding' is not of itself a technique, but intelligent use of roadspace with both safety and progress in mind, after a particular constraint has been lifted. However, the advanced driving movement does involve a progress imperative - I think I will start another thread about that - and in lifting the constraint it is particularly important to ensure a good understanding of the special hazards of being on the offside of the road.

[brianhaddon]

This is turning into an interesting and (long) thread so I apologize if I am repeating what has already been written. I am with GJD on this, if I understand you correctly. I believe in learning to use position and speed safely and effectively and for position if we are not confined by the law can mean any part of the road. We often cross the white line - to pass parked cars or to overtake moving vehicles for instance. So why not cross the line in other circumstance if we do it properly? There are the advantages of maintaining a view, of keeping stability whilst keeping a pace to name but two. And I am not bothered about shaving micro- seconds or even losing minutes I am looking for flow and rhythm. I think it is the potential of using the full width of the road and getting it wrong that often puts people off but the same can be said for overtaking so do you shy away from that?
A lot of what I am reading is down to perceptions in my view. Using the full width of the road is an extension of using position, but can only be done if observation, concentration and awareness are switched on. As GJD writes it is not a technique per se. So in principle I am not averse to using any part of the road (with all the qualifications that follow) when the opportunity presents itself.
Regards
Brian Haddon

[Grahar]

As I may have mentioned once or many times . . . I'm not anti- - but have reservations.

Regarding drivers' expectations, search for paper (I think it was presented at a Rospa conference) called 'what do drivers do at junctions'.

'Look for offside vehicles' isn't.

Like GJD and Brian Haddon I am quite happy to use slight to full off-siding where it is safe to do so. We all agree (including yourself Horse) that any offsiding has to be done with great care and caution for all the reasons/hazards discussed previously. Would you say that your approach to offsiding differs from this?

I'm sorry to ask you to clarify your position yet again, but some of the language you use when discussing it ('not keen'/'have reservations') is negative and therefore confusing when you have stated to me that you do use it when it is safe to.

Would it be more accurate to describe it (like myself) as a valuable technique, but one that has to be taught and used with full awareness of the potential dangers (and implications if incorrectly done), much like overtaking? The word 'reservations' suggests that there is something objectively dangerous about the action of offsiding itself (which doesn't involve causing alarm, danger or harm to other road users, to state the obvious!).

[TripleS]

Most drivers do not use the width of the road when negotiating corners because (and I could be wrong) Its not as forgiving as the above mentioned if it should go wrong because other road users do not expect you to be there!

I don't think that's why they don't do it. I think they don't do it because it hasn't occurred to them that they could, or they think it's not allowed or, in the case of passing an obstacle, they think it's a necessary evil, to be minimised at all costs. Of course it will end badly if you confuse "The whole width of the road is available to me for consideration" with "It is not important which side of the road I use". But is that confusion likely just from someone having their eyes opened to the idea that they might be better off sometimes if they didn't feel the need to hug their side of the road quite so bloody insistently all the time?

I think you are right, and I've been noticing this for some time. It appears that many drivers are nervous about being on 'the wrong side of the road', so they stay on their own side, too much so, sometimes. This means they drive far too close to parked vehicles, making no allowance for car doors being opened as they go past; and they do this even when there is plenty of space to go well offside without getting too close to possible offside hazards.

The same sort of thing is noticeable on dual carriageways too. Many drivers will catch up a vehicle in lane 1 and only at the last moment will they pull out to go past, whereas if I'm doing the overtaking I prefer to move out early, go past on a parallel course, and then gently return to lane 1. In fact it makes me, as the overtakee, a bit uncomfortable to see people rush up behind and then pull out relatively late, so when I see somebody catching me up on a dual carriageway, I've sometimes resorted to giving a couple of left indicator flashes. It is quite unnecessary to do this of course, but it does seem to prompt them to move out earlier, and it makes things feel better; to me at least. Going on from that, it might even make them come to realise that it feels better, so that would be good; but of course it assumes they notice things and think about them.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Watch "How to ride like a Police biker! Advanced motorcycle riding techniques and skills" on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYh1FWY ... ata_player

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this video, in particular the use of both offside of the road and even offside within lane with oncoming traffic. Also, they use offside for 'safety', but appear to maintain speed. How does that seem to AD viewers?

I personally think the ride has more emphasis on making progress and positioning is being used to aide this, I wouldn't sacrifice safety for position as the rider appeared to do early on, this may have been as a result of being committed with speed into the corner and he simply didn't have the time to bring it back across sufficiently without compromising his stability. However I'm not a biker so I could be wrong

Well I'm not a biker either, but for what it is worth I didn't like they way they were positioned out near the centre-line, even when oncomers were arriving. I would have wanted rather more lateral separation at that point, even in a car, and certainly if I were to be on a motorcycle.