ADUK Archive

Gareth wrote: I'd ask those that habitually use it about the benefits they perceive, other than it being fun.

What more reason do you need?!

Of course drivers delude themselves into thinking it was part of the plan, but drivers delude themselves into many things: 'Sure, I'm a great driver" and "He just pulled out suddenly" for example.

For me the system involves not only keeping your skills fresh but your thought process too.
I ain't no AD master, not by a longshot, but I do try my best to be as honest with myself as possible. How else will I improve?

Paul_Black wrote:Of course drivers delude themselves into thinking it was part of the plan,

It's interesting how we see things differently. All the drivers I've been driven by over the years who use heel n toe have been drivers of exceptional quality, way above ROSPA gold standard. I never got the impression that they were deluding themselves or not systemtically planning their drive.

waremark wrote:Roadcraft advocates overlap between brakes and gearchange .... in order to brake later when preparing to turn from a major road to a minor road if required to meet the expectations of following traffic.

Does it really allow you to brake later? Later than what?

My firmest braking tends to happen with seperation (and nothing close behind). Overlap at a junction allows me to spread the braking over a slightly longer distance, but starting at the same point or even earlier (than with seperation).

zadocbrown wrote:
Does it really allow you to brake later?

Yes it does.

zadocbrown wrote:Later than what?

Later than if you seperate.

zadocbrown wrote:My firmest braking tends to happen with seperation (and nothing close behind). Overlap at a junction allows me to spread the braking over a slightly longer distance, but starting at the same point or even earlier (than with seperation).

How the different methods are applied is irrelevent to that fact.
Regards
Brian Haddon

zadocbrown wrote:Does it really allow you to brake later? Later than what?

Later than if you were to use an identical braking profile but leave time after completing braking to do the gear change before the junction. But as you suggest, one's braking profiles with and without overlap might not be identical. I don't think it's where you start that really matters. When it comes to the expectations of the driver behind, I think if anything's going to surprise them about your braking it's the early finish needed for separation. And however early or late you start, however firmly or gently you brake, overlapping gives you the option of finishing braking later.

It's interesting how we see things differently. All the drivers I've been driven by over the years who use heel n toe have been drivers of exceptional quality, way above ROSPA gold standard. I never got the impression that they were deluding themselves or not systemtically planning their drive.

I didn't mean that anyone who uses heel 'n' toe is deluding themselves: quite the opposite.
What I mean to say was that using the technique is perfectly valid provided that its planned. What I mean to say was that drivers who delude themselves don't need the use of an advanced technique to help them do so. I would argue that the first step in becoming a better driver is acknowledging your shortcomings, even in your thought process.

waremark wrote:Hi Chris. Roadcraft advocates overlap between brakes and gearchange in a couple of specific circumstances...in order to brake later when preparing to turn from a major road to a minor road if required to meet the expectations of following traffic.road.

I suspect this advice is given partly in order to reduce the potential for a rear-end shunt. With this in mind, my approach differs from Roadcraft. If someone's bearing down on me at speed, or following closely, I wish to show my brake lights early. Furthermore, I'd rather be accelerating into the minor road and simultaneously out of the path of the following vehicle at the time when it's closest to me. To keep my braking smooth, I'd rather brake early.

What do you think?

Paul_Black wrote:I would argue that the first step in becoming a better driver is acknowledging your shortcomings, even in your thought process.

I agree but then I see some people who have passed advanced driving tests and still delude themselve on a regular or frequent basis.

I delude myself as well.

Bespoke Driver Trg wrote:What do you think?

I think there's a better argument for using brake/gear overlap prior to turning off a main road when the main road is steeply downhill than there is for all other side turnings. Braking earlier is what I need to do as a matter of course in order to get the gear change in as I don't use H&T on public roads, (being not very practiced in the art).

Well...we're all human, Gareth (I do it too )

I rarely use H 'n' T on the public road and when I do its usually for fun (and practice, gotta keep the skills fresh) and is always a planned part of the approach to a corner, junction, etc.

Some may find it smoother, some may find it awkward, some like it, some do not. The way I see it its another weapon to have in the bag of tricks that I use to stay safe on the road. I may rarely use it but if I decide I want to I know I can. Of course, its not essential to being a good driver and lots of people don't like using it (for example I don't like left foot braking, mainly because I can't do it properly yet) but for me its a weapon of choice thing. Its there if I decide I want it

I use it on the track and occasionally on the road. There's a road near me (many of you have driven it) where you drop down from a chalk escarpment to a sharpish bend fairly steeply downhill. The bend has two apexes, the second tighter than the first. As you exit the bend the road continues downhill into a village with a 30 limit. At this point I often h'n't from 4th to 2nd to hold the speed down the hill. It's the best method I've found to achieve a smooth transition off the brakes.

I use it in other places, too, and I welcome the opportunity to practise it. When done well it's a superb addition to the toolbox. I'll let you know when I get there.

I had great fun last year practising it in Chris WK's automatic, too