Is advanced driving just a matter of training?

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby Ancient » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:54 pm


IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:Hi

Looking at the responses to this one makes me want to add my little bit.

Although I have never had a single "advanced" lesson in my life I still consider myself to be an advanced driver, why?..well based purely on the amount of milage and the sheer number of different vehicles I have driven (cars, vans, trucks, right hand drive, left hand drive, manual automatic etc), sorry just occured to me that that list doesnt leave much else does it!
That was always going to be ripped into IMO. There are plenty of "highly experienced" drivers on the roads who have got away with poor driving for years and have come to believe that this makes them good drivers.
IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:As I was saying, because I have always been interested in driving (I could drive when I was 10) I have always tried to develop my driving through the years, and still do, trying to improve cornering, braking, observation etc until I am satisfied I could not do it better.
This though, I do agree with. I first became interested in IAM because I saw so much p#@@ poor driving on the roads - either they were all wrong and I was right, or :shock: maybe I was wrong. I saw an IAM course as a way of confirming that either way :wink: .
There are particular skills that will be developed with advanced training, but mostly it is about the having (and nurturing) attitude that wants to develop those skills. This is why many (most?) will never be advanced drivers, they (including many good friends of mine) simply lack the attitude that means they want to improve their driving.
Ancient
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:22 pm

Postby martine » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:34 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
martine wrote:Would you consider someone to be a great author because they've written a large number of books?

Code: Select all
             /\___/\
             )     (
            =\     /=
              )   (
             /     \
             )     (
            /       \
            \       /
             \__ __/
                ))
               //
              ((
               \)

Can I interest Sir in some milk? :P

:lol:
And my apologies to Ivor but I felt it needed a 'rebuff'. As Ancient said the very fact you (Ivor) takes an interest in driving and I'm sure a certain pride in driving well is 90% there to being 'advanced'.

We now need to get fully into a discussion about what 'advanced' actually is...but I think we've done this before somewhere. :shock:
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
martine
 
Posts: 4430
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Bristol, UK




Postby TripleS » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:06 pm


Horse wrote:
ROG wrote:Advanced driving is a progression from the basic DSA standard

Unlike DSA style instruction, you will not be TOLD what to do


FWIW, DSA currently have a project underway evaluating 'coaching' techniques.


Good, that sounds like a very welcome initiative and I hope it yields encouraging results. If it were to lead to significant changes in the way new drivers are taught, would it mean that all ADIs would need a certain amount of re-training? I'd expect that it would.

While they're about it, I hope a new training regime would incorporate some elements from what is currently regarded as advanced driving.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS
 
Posts: 6025
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Briggswath, Whitby

Postby TiJay » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:23 pm


Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely. You can get all subjective about it but there's a reason the IAM and ROSPA are held in high regard when it comes to advanced driving.

Amirite? :lol:

Also, on topic, I'd say training and attitude.
Passed driving test: Feb 2007 (2nd time)
Passed IAM test: July 2008 (first time!)

Car: Mazda MX-5 Mk1
TiJay
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 6:31 pm

Postby TripleS » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:43 pm


TiJay wrote:Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely. You can get all subjective about it but there's a reason the IAM and ROSPA are held in high regard when it comes to advanced driving.

Amirite? :lol:


Partially.

The IAM/RoSPA held in high regard though? Yes, I suppose so, but mainly by themselves, and I don't say that in an unkind spirit: sorry if it looks like that. The vast majority of drivers have probably never heard of them, so I would suggest the sample size of your 'survey' is pretty small, and not exactly independent.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS
 
Posts: 6025
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Briggswath, Whitby

Postby ROG » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:37 pm


chriskay wrote: I suggest there are many drivers out there who drive in an "advanced" fashion, whatever that is, who have never been near IAM or RoSPA.

Many LGV/PCV drivers fit into that section
ROG (retired)
Civilian Advanced Driver
Observer - Leicester Group of Advanced Motorists
EX LGV instructor
User avatar
ROG
 
Posts: 2498
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:19 pm
Location: LEICESTER

Postby playtent » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:34 pm


How many hours on average would someone require to pass an advanced driving test with IAM or similar?
I know you will say that the person needs to practice in between, but time with an observer?
10?

Regards
playtent
 

Postby Horse » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:07 pm


playtent wrote:How many hours on average would someone require to pass an advanced driving test with IAM or similar?
I know you will say that the person needs to practice in between, but time with an observer?
10?


About as long as a piece of string, and you haven't said what colour the string should be.

I've known people who've walked (well, ridden) in off the street and passed. I've also met associates on the point of giving up riding because they can't cope.
Anything posted by 'Horse' may be (C) Malcolm Palmer. Please ask for permission before considering any copying or re-use outside of forum posting.
User avatar
Horse
 
Posts: 2811
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:40 pm
Location: Darkest Berkshoire

Postby fungus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:31 pm


TripleS wrote:
TiJay wrote:Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely. You can get all subjective about it but there's a reason the IAM and ROSPA are held in high regard when it comes to advanced driving.

Amirite? :lol:


Partially.

The IAM/RoSPA held in high regard though? Yes, I suppose so, but mainly by themselves, and I don't say that in an unkind spirit: sorry if it looks like that. The vast majority of drivers have probably never heard of them, so I would suggest the sample size of your 'survey' is pretty small, and not exactly independent.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


Even some ADIs have not heard of the IAM or Roadar.

playtent wrote:How many hours on average would someone require to pass an advanced driving test with IAM or similar?
I know you will say that the person needs to practice in between, but time with an observer?
10?

Regards


That's a familiar question. As an ADI, I am often asked how many lessons it will take to pass the test. And that's before I even seen the pupil.
Nigel ADI
IAM observer
User avatar
fungus
 
Posts: 1739
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:16 pm
Location: Dorset

Postby TripleS » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:52 pm


chriskay wrote:
TiJay wrote:Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely.

That's one definition of advanced driving, but not, I think, the only one. I suggest there are many drivers out there who drive in an "advanced" fashion, whatever that is, who have never been near IAM or RoSPA.

Oh, I have today been examined for my triennial RoSPA test by a serving police driver/rider who, after observing my driving for an hour was kind enough to say that he would be happy to be driven by me in his police car.
I'm pleased to say I retained my Gold.


Congratulations, Chris.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS
 
Posts: 6025
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Briggswath, Whitby

Postby playtent » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:14 pm


Horse wrote:
About as long as a piece of string, and you haven't said what colour the string should be.

I've known people who've walked (well, ridden) in off the street and passed. I've also met associates on the point of giving up riding because they can't cope.


So in answer to the question of the thread, no its not just a matter of training.

I know people who have done a Police advanced driving course for 4 weeks after already doing a 4 week standard course and fail. They have then re-done the course again and failed. A 3rd time and still failed. So 16 weeks of training and still they can not pass. I'm sure its different for a civilian, but I imagine we all know people that would never pass no matter how much training they were given!

Regards
playtent
 

Postby TripleS » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:22 am


playtent wrote:
Horse wrote:
About as long as a piece of string, and you haven't said what colour the string should be.

I've known people who've walked (well, ridden) in off the street and passed. I've also met associates on the point of giving up riding because they can't cope.


So in answer to the question of the thread, no its not just a matter of training.

I know people who have done a Police advanced driving course for 4 weeks after already doing a 4 week standard course and fail. They have then re-done the course again and failed. A 3rd time and still failed. So 16 weeks of training and still they can not pass. I'm sure its different for a civilian, but I imagine we all know people that would never pass no matter how much training they were given!

Regards


Yes. :(

Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS
 
Posts: 6025
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Briggswath, Whitby

Postby Kevin » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:51 am


As for how long it takes to become an advanced driver, I would answer that it all depends on the individual. I passed my car test in 1980. Three years later, on seeing an advert in a paper for the IAM, I applied to take their advanced car test. I didn’t have any training from an observer, but instead just bought the IAM advanced driving book and Roadcraft. I read the books and tried to put into practice what I’d learnt and managed to pass the IAM test first time in 1983.

In 1997 I went on to take my C and C+E tests. Having passed the IAM car test, albeit back in 1983, I considered myself to be a reasonably good driver, but the training and tests for HGVs made me think again, as I had to up my game to some extent.

Last year I decided to join the local RoADAR group and took training with them. Even though I’d passed my IAM test, ridden a motorcycle for many years and driven HGVs for about 10 years and had many hundreds of thousands of miles of driving experience, I still learnt some things that improved my driving. I also bought all the Chris Gilbert DVDs, which I thought were very impressive and they certainly improved my observation skills. I managed to pass the RoADAR test with a gold award thanks to the excellent training I received from my observer.

The point of this rather long, and some might say boring, story is that it’s there’s always something to learn, and there are many ways of going about it: books, DVDs, formal training/observation, tests, web sites like this one etc. I would say to anyone who wants to improve their driving to explore as many methods as possible. The learning process never stops and anyone who takes pride or a keen interest in their driving will more than likely find enjoyment in exploring the various resources available.

It's not, of course, mandatory to take advanced driving tests to be good driver, but you do get feedback from the examiner, so the test is also a way to learn and, hopefully, improve.
Kevin
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Thetford

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:18 am


Keeping on learning makes it interesting. I, too, passed the DSA test in 1980, but it then took me 26 years to get round to doing anything "advanced", apart from a half-day "defensive driving" course my employer sent me on in 1990. I was given a copy of Roadcraft on that day, and read it a few times in the interim, but never really went out and put any of it into practice.

Since 2006 I've had an almost continuous stream of learning opportunities, many from other members of this forum, for which I'm eternally grateful. I now enjoy my driving far more than I did when I was driving faster, less safely, and in the wrong seating position :)
User avatar
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
 
Posts: 2928
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:03 am
Location: Swindon, Wilts




Postby IVORTHE DRIVER » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:06 pm


ROG wrote:
martine wrote:
IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:Although I have never had a single "advanced" lesson in my life I still consider myself to be an advanced driver, why?..well based purely on the amount of milage and the sheer number of different vehicles I have driven...

Would you consider someone to be a great author because they've written a large number of books?

Experienced driver = yes

How can anyone say that their driving is this or that without another being there to watch them and confirm it?

Me - I am a brilliant driver - right!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Morning all

I am not going to be to confrontational but sort of disagree with you :D

I am the first to admit I do not know everything (some of my posts will confirm that) and I have no real idea how the "advanced" driver status got started but how did the very first "advanced" driver decide he or she was "advanced"?

If they had to have someone else confirm it who was it?

Guess that would have been an "experienced" driver then :!:

Still say if your attitude is right you can do far worse than self-asses, and self-criticise, self-curse etc etc ok i admit I do not always follow the rules exactly but rules are flexible within safety margins, as long as you are able to recognise your limits, the cars limits and the limits of the rules you can teach yourself up to a very high standard.

All examiners/assessors/volunteer or otherwise are still very much needed to keep our roads safe and they do a fantastic job but I dont think there is a huge gap between experienced and advanced drivers.

My daughter has just passed her part2 ADI test at the second attempt (she has also passed her IAM recently ) and I am of course very proud of her but she still makes mistakes purely because she does not have the experience to fall back on in certain circumstances.

By all means have observed drives and tests but experience goes a hell of a long way to keeping you and your passengers safe on todays roads.

Have a good day

Ivor
2.5 Million miles of non-advanced but hopefully safe driving, not ready to quit yet
IVORTHE DRIVER
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Ayrshire in sunny Scotland

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Driving Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


cron