ADUK Archive

IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:Hi

Looking at the responses to this one makes me want to add my little bit.

Although I have never had a single "advanced" lesson in my life I still consider myself to be an advanced driver, why?..well based purely on the amount of milage and the sheer number of different vehicles I have driven (cars, vans, trucks, right hand drive, left hand drive, manual automatic etc), sorry just occured to me that that list doesnt leave much else does it!

That was always going to be ripped into IMO. There are plenty of "highly experienced" drivers on the roads who have got away with poor driving for years and have come to believe that this makes them good drivers.

IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:As I was saying, because I have always been interested in driving (I could drive when I was 10) I have always tried to develop my driving through the years, and still do, trying to improve cornering, braking, observation etc until I am satisfied I could not do it better.

This though, I do agree with. I first became interested in IAM because I saw so much p#@@ poor driving on the roads - either they were all wrong and I was right, or maybe I was wrong. I saw an IAM course as a way of confirming that either way .
There are particular skills that will be developed with advanced training, but mostly it is about the having (and nurturing) attitude that wants to develop those skills. This is why many (most?) will never be advanced drivers, they (including many good friends of mine) simply lack the attitude that means they want to improve their driving.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:

martine wrote:Would you consider someone to be a great author because they've written a large number of books?

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Can I interest Sir in some milk?

And my apologies to Ivor but I felt it needed a 'rebuff'. As Ancient said the very fact you (Ivor) takes an interest in driving and I'm sure a certain pride in driving well is 90% there to being 'advanced'.

We now need to get fully into a discussion about what 'advanced' actually is...but I think we've done this before somewhere.

Horse wrote:

ROG wrote:Advanced driving is a progression from the basic DSA standard

Unlike DSA style instruction, you will not be TOLD what to do

FWIW, DSA currently have a project underway evaluating 'coaching' techniques.

Good, that sounds like a very welcome initiative and I hope it yields encouraging results. If it were to lead to significant changes in the way new drivers are taught, would it mean that all ADIs would need a certain amount of re-training? I'd expect that it would.

While they're about it, I hope a new training regime would incorporate some elements from what is currently regarded as advanced driving.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely. You can get all subjective about it but there's a reason the IAM and ROSPA are held in high regard when it comes to advanced driving.

Amirite?

Also, on topic, I'd say training and attitude.

TiJay wrote:Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely. You can get all subjective about it but there's a reason the IAM and ROSPA are held in high regard when it comes to advanced driving.

Amirite?

Partially.

The IAM/RoSPA held in high regard though? Yes, I suppose so, but mainly by themselves, and I don't say that in an unkind spirit: sorry if it looks like that. The vast majority of drivers have probably never heard of them, so I would suggest the sample size of your 'survey' is pretty small, and not exactly independent.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

chriskay wrote: I suggest there are many drivers out there who drive in an "advanced" fashion, whatever that is, who have never been near IAM or RoSPA.

Many LGV/PCV drivers fit into that section

How many hours on average would someone require to pass an advanced driving test with IAM or similar?
I know you will say that the person needs to practice in between, but time with an observer?
10?

Regards

playtent wrote:How many hours on average would someone require to pass an advanced driving test with IAM or similar?
I know you will say that the person needs to practice in between, but time with an observer?
10?

About as long as a piece of string, and you haven't said what colour the string should be.

I've known people who've walked (well, ridden) in off the street and passed. I've also met associates on the point of giving up riding because they can't cope.

TripleS wrote:

TiJay wrote:Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely. You can get all subjective about it but there's a reason the IAM and ROSPA are held in high regard when it comes to advanced driving.

Amirite?

Partially.

The IAM/RoSPA held in high regard though? Yes, I suppose so, but mainly by themselves, and I don't say that in an unkind spirit: sorry if it looks like that. The vast majority of drivers have probably never heard of them, so I would suggest the sample size of your 'survey' is pretty small, and not exactly independent.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Even some ADIs have not heard of the IAM or Roadar.

playtent wrote:How many hours on average would someone require to pass an advanced driving test with IAM or similar?
I know you will say that the person needs to practice in between, but time with an observer?
10?

Regards

That's a familiar question. As an ADI, I am often asked how many lessons it will take to pass the test. And that's before I even seen the pupil.

chriskay wrote:

TiJay wrote:Advanced driving is driving to the standard set by one of the recognised organisations, surely.

That's one definition of advanced driving, but not, I think, the only one. I suggest there are many drivers out there who drive in an "advanced" fashion, whatever that is, who have never been near IAM or RoSPA.

Oh, I have today been examined for my triennial RoSPA test by a serving police driver/rider who, after observing my driving for an hour was kind enough to say that he would be happy to be driven by me in his police car.
I'm pleased to say I retained my Gold.

Congratulations, Chris.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Horse wrote:
About as long as a piece of string, and you haven't said what colour the string should be.

I've known people who've walked (well, ridden) in off the street and passed. I've also met associates on the point of giving up riding because they can't cope.

So in answer to the question of the thread, no its not just a matter of training.

I know people who have done a Police advanced driving course for 4 weeks after already doing a 4 week standard course and fail. They have then re-done the course again and failed. A 3rd time and still failed. So 16 weeks of training and still they can not pass. I'm sure its different for a civilian, but I imagine we all know people that would never pass no matter how much training they were given!

Regards

playtent wrote:

Horse wrote:
About as long as a piece of string, and you haven't said what colour the string should be.

I've known people who've walked (well, ridden) in off the street and passed. I've also met associates on the point of giving up riding because they can't cope.

So in answer to the question of the thread, no its not just a matter of training.

I know people who have done a Police advanced driving course for 4 weeks after already doing a 4 week standard course and fail. They have then re-done the course again and failed. A 3rd time and still failed. So 16 weeks of training and still they can not pass. I'm sure its different for a civilian, but I imagine we all know people that would never pass no matter how much training they were given!

Regards

Yes.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

As for how long it takes to become an advanced driver, I would answer that it all depends on the individual. I passed my car test in 1980. Three years later, on seeing an advert in a paper for the IAM, I applied to take their advanced car test. I didn’t have any training from an observer, but instead just bought the IAM advanced driving book and Roadcraft. I read the books and tried to put into practice what I’d learnt and managed to pass the IAM test first time in 1983.

In 1997 I went on to take my C and C+E tests. Having passed the IAM car test, albeit back in 1983, I considered myself to be a reasonably good driver, but the training and tests for HGVs made me think again, as I had to up my game to some extent.

Last year I decided to join the local RoADAR group and took training with them. Even though I’d passed my IAM test, ridden a motorcycle for many years and driven HGVs for about 10 years and had many hundreds of thousands of miles of driving experience, I still learnt some things that improved my driving. I also bought all the Chris Gilbert DVDs, which I thought were very impressive and they certainly improved my observation skills. I managed to pass the RoADAR test with a gold award thanks to the excellent training I received from my observer.

The point of this rather long, and some might say boring, story is that it’s there’s always something to learn, and there are many ways of going about it: books, DVDs, formal training/observation, tests, web sites like this one etc. I would say to anyone who wants to improve their driving to explore as many methods as possible. The learning process never stops and anyone who takes pride or a keen interest in their driving will more than likely find enjoyment in exploring the various resources available.

It's not, of course, mandatory to take advanced driving tests to be good driver, but you do get feedback from the examiner, so the test is also a way to learn and, hopefully, improve.

Keeping on learning makes it interesting. I, too, passed the DSA test in 1980, but it then took me 26 years to get round to doing anything "advanced", apart from a half-day "defensive driving" course my employer sent me on in 1990. I was given a copy of Roadcraft on that day, and read it a few times in the interim, but never really went out and put any of it into practice.

Since 2006 I've had an almost continuous stream of learning opportunities, many from other members of this forum, for which I'm eternally grateful. I now enjoy my driving far more than I did when I was driving faster, less safely, and in the wrong seating position

ROG wrote:

martine wrote:

IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:Although I have never had a single "advanced" lesson in my life I still consider myself to be an advanced driver, why?..well based purely on the amount of milage and the sheer number of different vehicles I have driven...

Would you consider someone to be a great author because they've written a large number of books?

Experienced driver = yes

How can anyone say that their driving is this or that without another being there to watch them and confirm it?

Me - I am a brilliant driver - right!!

Morning all

I am not going to be to confrontational but sort of disagree with you

I am the first to admit I do not know everything (some of my posts will confirm that) and I have no real idea how the "advanced" driver status got started but how did the very first "advanced" driver decide he or she was "advanced"?

If they had to have someone else confirm it who was it?

Guess that would have been an "experienced" driver then

Still say if your attitude is right you can do far worse than self-asses, and self-criticise, self-curse etc etc ok i admit I do not always follow the rules exactly but rules are flexible within safety margins, as long as you are able to recognise your limits, the cars limits and the limits of the rules you can teach yourself up to a very high standard.

All examiners/assessors/volunteer or otherwise are still very much needed to keep our roads safe and they do a fantastic job but I dont think there is a huge gap between experienced and advanced drivers.

My daughter has just passed her part2 ADI test at the second attempt (she has also passed her IAM recently ) and I am of course very proud of her but she still makes mistakes purely because she does not have the experience to fall back on in certain circumstances.

By all means have observed drives and tests but experience goes a hell of a long way to keeping you and your passengers safe on todays roads.

Have a good day

Ivor