All season and winter tyres

[TripleS]

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[trashbat]

One of the things which has changed over the years is the width of tyres; years ago they were, in general, narrower, which led to the weight of the car being applied to a smaller footprint. This must have helped with penetration into snow and ice and so improved traction.

Yes, that's a point I tend to overlook, and I'm sure it does have an adverse effect in winter. Maybe the car makers will start a trend back towards narrower tyres on ordinary cars. It would make sense to me, but what they then provide for the summer-driving enthusiast might be a different matter.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[irf520]

That bottom picture looks like it's running on 4 space savers.

[fungus]

My previous car, an Ibiza TDI, was fitted with Pirelli Zero Nero 205/45 R 16s. The grip in the snow on a slight hill was not good. My present car, a Fiesta 1.4 petrol, is fitted with Pirelli Zero Nero 195/45 R 16s but the grip is a fair bit better than the Ibiza. Whether the fact that the Fiesta has ESC is a factor or not, I don't know, or is it the slightly narrower profile?

[TripleS]

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[Slink_Pink]

Well now, after all the sceptical comments I've made previously about summer tyres v winter tyres etc., I think I ought to report my latest experiences.

The Pug 406 is currently on Hankook Optimo K425 Kinergy something-or-other. These are (apparently) 'summer tyres' fitted in July 2011, and they've now covered about 16,000 miles, and although they still have legal tread depth, they will need replacing quite soon. Apart from any other considerations I find this a disappointing life in view of my relatively restrained driving style.

Anyhow, in the recent winter weather I have been unpleasantly surprised by the poor traction when climbing snowy/slushy hills, and the difficulty of braking on the downhill bits. All in all they've been giving me more cause for concern than anything I have previously experienced in winters going back several decades.

So, the question in my mind, not wishing to make unfair criticism of this Hankook product, is this: Is the very poor grip solely, or primarily, being caused by the admittedly shallow tread depth on these tyres, or are the shortcomings attributable to the overall characteristics of this particular product? Going back many years, I've driven in similar conditions in previous winters, using tyres that had a far from new tread depth, and never had the concerns I'm feeling right now, so it is increasingly making me wonder what's going on.

I'm guessing that your tread depth is between 1.6mm and 3mm? From what I remember, 3mm is a sort of tipping point, below which the tyres ability to grip and shift water drops at a much higher rate per mm tread than above this depth. (I did a quick Google but couldn't find the graph I had in my head to illustrate).

[Gareth]

If anyone is interested I found a better picture showing the tread pattern of an all-season tyre - see my first contribution on the first page.

[Silk]

I realise it may not be popular with some on here, but I find the whole idea of winter tyres to be more than a little namby-pamby. When the weather gets a bit cold and there's likely to be ice on the road, I prefer to simply take it easy. I don't like the idea of trusting my safety to the, probably very small in reality, difference in grip between one type of tyre and another.

I'm sure this is done to death elsewhere, including the winter tyre thread on here, but you are wrong about this.

Sorry, but I think not.

Let's look at the evidence: -

1) Most people in the UK experience about half a dozen days of snow a year. In this recent bout of snow, the only bit that was tricky for me to drive is the 100 yards between my garage and the nearest bit of treated road.
2) A full set of Winter Tyres will set me back around £600. If I include a set of wheels, so I can change them easily, that's the thick end of £1K or nearly £200 a day for days that I'm likely to need them. I then have to store them for the other 359 days.

Up until only a few years ago, I'd never even heard of winter tyres, so I'll take my chance and take it easy when the weather turns bad and there's likely to be snow/ice.

If I was doing some kind of motorsport, then things would be very different.

[knighterrant]

The recent bad weather has made me think about this more than ever before. Although I've managed to get around OK on my Continental Sport Contact summer tyres, pushing over 300bhp through them hasn't exactly been filling me with confidence! I've thought about getting all season tyres when they're due for renewal, but the choice for the 255/35 18" rears seems to be limited to Goodyears. I've also looked into getting a new set of alloys fitted with winter tyres, probably 225/45 17" all round. But these would set me back over £1000, a lot of money for the limited use the car gets in the winter. So for now I'm going to remain confused and careful.

[Russ_H]

He came up with Vredestein Quatrac 3 and I ordered four and had them fitted yesterday. The size is 195/50/15 and the total price, fitted, was £260 which I thought very reasonable. I've only driven on them for a few miles so far, but I like the feel of them; having spoken with Gareth I know he likes them too.

I've had Quatrac 3s on my car for about three years. It's difficult, of course, to conduct an objective test, but as a purely subjective opinion, I like them.

I live on a hill, and I've had no problems at all in getting onto my drive. Other people in the street have. Being fairly cautious in bad conditions, it's difficult for me to say how much better they might be than other tyres on open roads, but I've had no slithery moments at all.

Additionally, they are not showing any signs of excessive wear. I will certainly replace them with the same make and model.

[jameslb101]

A few months back, when I needed to fit some new tyres to my car in order to sell it, I fitted an ultra cheap budget brand - I couldn't tell the difference.

Driving to the shops, no, you probably didn't. But you would notice the difference at the one moment you need good tyres most, namely the situation of having to swerve or brake hard to avoid a hazard. Obviously we hope we have the skills to spot these situations before they develop to this point, but I'd personally never be so cocky to say I wouldn't find myself in one.

A full set of Winter Tyres will set me back around £600. If I include a set of wheels, so I can change them easily, that's the thick end of £1K or nearly £200 a day for days that I'm likely to need them. I then have to store them for the other 359 days.

I'm not a winter user tyre but I object to dodgy logic when I see it.

Winter tyres don't normally cost any more than summer tyres, or have a significantly shorter life. Therefore, if you cover 5000 miles on your winter tyres between October and March, that's 5000 miles of wear you save from your summer tyres, so they only need to be replaced half as frequently.

Regarding the wheels, if you buy them used (ebay etc) then they're unlikely to suffer significant depreciation and can be put back for sale when the car is sold (or even sold with the car if the buyer desires).

Therefore, it should be possible for there to be no added cost from using winter tyres.

[jameslb101]

1) Most people in the UK experience about half a dozen days of snow a year. In this recent bout of snow, the only bit that was tricky for me to drive is the 100 yards between my garage and the nearest bit of treated road.

This thread is about winter tyres (advantageous throughout the winter months), not snow tyres (that of course are only advantageous for getting to the main road on those half dozen days). It's a common misconception that these are one and the same.

[Slink_Pink]

1) Most people in the UK experience about half a dozen days of snow a year. In this recent bout of snow, the only bit that was tricky for me to drive is the 100 yards between my garage and the nearest bit of treated road.

This thread is about winter tyres (advantageous throughout the winter months), not snow tyres (that of course are only advantageous for getting to the main road on those half dozen days). It's a common misconception that these are one and the same.

So what is the difference?

[jameslb101]

1) Most people in the UK experience about half a dozen days of snow a year. In this recent bout of snow, the only bit that was tricky for me to drive is the 100 yards between my garage and the nearest bit of treated road.

This thread is about winter tyres (advantageous throughout the winter months), not snow tyres (that of course are only advantageous for getting to the main road on those half dozen days). It's a common misconception that these are one and the same.

So what is the difference?

Winter tyres are designed for cold conditions, and optimal at 7 degrees or below. Thus they perform better in snow than summer tyres, but are preferable to summer tyres throughout the winter.

Snow tyres on the other hand are studded to provide excellent grip on snow and ice, but the payoff is poor grip on dry and wet tarmac. For this reason I believe they are illegal in the UK and some other EU countries.

The way Silk was talking about a type of tyre only being beneficial for the "100 yards between my garage and the nearest bit of treated road" during the "half a dozen days of snow a year" it sounded like he was talking about the studded snow/ice tyres, rather than winter tyres that are of course beneficial for the 3-6 coldest months in the UK.

Like I say, I've never used winter tyres myself, so am really no expert on them.

[IanB]

Studded tyres are certainly not illegal in the U.K. They were very popular in Shetland where I lived in the 80's and probably still are. In my experience (I had a full set for my Mini and all the company vehicles had them on the driven wheels) studs make little, if any, difference on snow. It's ice that they are effective on.