ADUK Archive

Precisely (7db). Most of my driving faults - at least the known ones, which I think constitute the majority - are borne of or maintained by attitude, and I could (and do) stamp them out by improving that.

If you think it's of no relevance to newcomers and/or groups like the IAM, fine, but that's your opinion. If you were an intelligent person looking at a broad range of tuition options for something, be it driving or playing piano or becoming a commercial airline pilot, would you be more or less attracted by something that tackled the fuzzy Zen aspects of it all as well as the lever-pulling mechanical follow-my-leads? The answer to that will vary but to say it's a straight deterrent is narrow minded. In my opinion.

I mention pilots for a reason, by the way. Crew resource management, or CRM, is about attitude, internally and when dealing with others. It saves lives and prevents accidents, and is now a fundamental part of the airline industry. 583 people died in a single incident, in which one of the major factors was a first officer who appeared to identify the imminent disaster, but failed to take decisive action because his captain had greater (social) authority.

I don't imagine any of us is likely burdened with quite the same responsibility, at least until one wanders off the road and derails a train or something, but do you not think that the driving community could possibly learn from that? Nope, shuffle the wheel please.

trashbat wrote:but failed to take decisive action because his captain had greater (social) authority.

This is a fascinating example and Von identified the same effect in a post earlier in this page. It's certainly something I notice in driving with other AD people. There's nearly always a "senior" co-driver in the car and it distorts the drive of both parties. I am at a loss as to how to improve that. I think it needs to come from the senior co-driver's lead.

trashbat wrote:Does this stuff crop up to any significant degree anywhere in civilian driving? For example I mean in something like Masters, or in other countries, or in say how the authorities communicate with young drivers to try and reduce the casualty rates.

It's moving faster in civilian driving. As said the DSA are bringing change. The way ADI's are assessed is changing next year & on their check tests the supervising examiners will be looking for a more 'client centred approach'.
Rather than the instructor dictating the lesson plan, it will be the client choosing what they want to work on & why. The supervising examiners are being trained at the moment & it will filter down.
They are doing all that following work from a consortium of European countries with the HERMES project, which was set up to look into precisely that issue (reducing casualty figures in young drivers through education).

trashbat wrote:Why it would put anyone off, I don't understand. There's a piece in the opening section of Roadcraft that tackles the subject of mental state and attitude.

Some people will be put off, some will be lazy & just asked to be told. A lot of instructors won't like it because it means them having to relinquish control & their experience becomes less relevant. Some people will see it as a drop in standards because how they measure standards doesn't fit with what is considered important etc etc.

It's one thing to tell people what they should do in print, another entirely to create learning environments that allow them to experience it & learn from it in practice.

7db wrote:

trashbat wrote:but failed to take decisive action because his captain had greater (social) authority.

This is a fascinating example and Von identified the same effect in a post earlier in this page. It's certainly something I notice in driving with other AD people. There's nearly always a "senior" co-driver in the car and it distorts the drive of both parties. I am at a loss as to how to improve that. I think it needs to come from the senior co-driver's lead.

So as one who is often regarded as the senior I try to say something along the lines of 'we all make mistakes, so do tell me if I do something which looks wrong to you'. I don't suppose it works. I am unlikely to say anything when I am the junior.

On the wider issue, I did ask because I don't naturally understand, and I understand a little better now than I did before. I should have thought those who dont find this helpful, and are not interested would just ignore this thread.

I recognise the importance of psychological factors, but VH makes it sound as though consideration of these issues is the be all and end all of driver development. I consider that a fair body of teaching is required covering skills and techniques. We want advanced drivers to want to regard safety as a high priority at all times, but we also want them to understand how to go about prioritising safety, vision and stability in planning a course - and my view is that such things can be taught more satisfactorily than they can be discovered.

waremark wrote:

7db wrote:

trashbat wrote:but failed to take decisive action because his captain had greater (social) authority.

This is a fascinating example and Von identified the same effect in a post earlier in this page. It's certainly something I notice in driving with other AD people. There's nearly always a "senior" co-driver in the car and it distorts the drive of both parties. I am at a loss as to how to improve that. I think it needs to come from the senior co-driver's lead.

So as one who is often regarded as the senior I try to say something along the lines of 'we all make mistakes, so do tell me if I do something which looks wrong to you'. I don't suppose it works. I am unlikely to say anything when I am the junior.

On the wider issue, I did ask because I don't naturally understand, and I understand a little better now than I did before. I should have thought those who dont find this helpful, and are not interested would just ignore this thread.

I recognise the importance of psychological factors, but VH makes it sound as though consideration of these issues is the be all and end all of driver development. I consider that a fair body of teaching is required covering skills and techniques. We want advanced drivers to want to regard safety as a high priority at all times, but we also want them to understand how to go about prioritising safety, vision and stability in planning a course - and my view is that such things can be taught more satisfactorily than they can be discovered.

Instruction tends to assume that they are empty vessels & they need this knowledge to be given to them by another, but generally that isn't true.

If you ask them the right questions then they generally have a lot of that knowledge in there (they've been in cars driven well & poorly before) & you can draw it from them. A lot of the stuff (positive outcomes) that you'd like to see, they'd like to see. If you draw the mental picture of the hazard & question them about it, they'd invariably express a lot of the opinions you'd like to hear in relation to it.

Beyond that allow them to practice safely (focusing on the outcome they want) & then what problems that come up can be investigated through (good quality) questions after. At that point a variety of options as to how they address that may be discussed & they can choose which (style) that they'd like to try to address the problem.The limiting factor is invariably the quality of the listening & the questions.

The factors you are talking about are not unimportant or ignored, it's how they are covered in order to maximise access to the upper levels is what is important (so that all 4 levels get covered not just the first 2).

There has to be some irony that methods used to teach learners are on the 'too hard' pile for some advanced drivers . . .

Horse wrote:There has to be some irony that methods used to teach learners are on the 'too hard' pile for some advanced drivers . . .

Becoming an ADI is on the to hard pile for some Advanced Instructors!

7db wrote:

trashbat wrote:but failed to take decisive action because his captain had greater (social) authority.

This is a fascinating example and Von identified the same effect in a post earlier in this page. It's certainly something I notice in driving with other AD people. There's nearly always a "senior" co-driver in the car and it distorts the drive of both parties. I am at a loss as to how to improve that. I think it needs to come from the senior co-driver's lead.

You've got to try & remove the power imbalance. Non judgemental discussion where opinions & what underpins them are explored. Ultimately choices are theirs & responsibility for outcomes are therefore theirs. Really try to resist giving opinion & instead explore theirs (what they think/feel & why).

I think this thread has more than run it's course and some posts are not appropriate - personal attacks etc. I'm locking it.

If anyone would like to start a new thread focussed on teaching methods/attitude please do but can I ask we all refrain from getting personal - we're all adults here - lets behave like them and keep it polite and to the point (crikey this isn't pistonheads you know).