Breaking the speed limit whilst overtaking

[dombooth]

But the views you took in will be from a similar aged person, not a teenager.

Dom

You miss the point: the new views and ideas which I needed to consider were new to me and I was able and willing to consider them. Note that I say consider, not necessarily accept, although most of them upon reflection, were valid. The course was, in fact, conducted by someone who, while not a teenager, was a couple of decades my junior.
During my membership of HPC I drove with many younger drivers and views have been freely exchanged in both directions.

Things I post on this forum, such as the opposition I have to speeding, are looked at then aren't really taken on board at all, which says to me, (and others), that this is an "I'm been driving longer, It's perfectly okay to break the speed limit when it's safe to do so."

Dom

[dombooth]

...People advocating breaking the law is just wrong. It's illegal to drive the wrong way down a one way road, would you do that one too?

Dom

You raise a good point Dom. That is, that there are many regulations regarding driving that advanced drivers generally obey and do not seek to justify non-compliance with even going as far as to make an unfounded link between non-compliance and safety. For example, the statutory requirement for insurance has nothing whatsoever to do with road safety. It merely answers the economic question, who pays? Yet there are various references on this forum asserting that driving without insurance compromises road safety.

Of course, you are free to believe and to claim that non-compliance with traffic regulations is irresponsible. It is difficult to argue with that. Furthermore you can claim that advanced drivers should not be irresponsible.

The difficulty arises when making direct links between compliance and safety.

I haven't seen anything in the posts above that convinces me that speed limits inhibit most drivers from choosing an appropriate safe speed.

Most drivers like to drive at fairly constant speeds they feel comfortable with and this appears not to be the consequence of speed limits but a consequence of human nature and the level of training needed to pass the DSA test.

When you prepared for your IAM test did you notice a significant increase in the variation of your speed over a particular stretch of road? I believe this variation is at the heart of advanced driving. Matching speed to hazards. If one is doing this, mandatory speed limits become superfluous.

More importantly the relentless reduction in limits provides ever decreasing opportunities to drive progressively and safely. I suggest, that is why advanced drivers, are frustrated with limits.

As you are a relatively new driver, decreases in limits have had much less impact on you than others contributing here. You may have a different opinion in 20 years time

So, believing that speeding is irresponsible and not appropriate behaviour for advanced drivers is a point of view that is respectable and indeed supported by the AD organisations.

Directly linking speed limits with safety undermines basic principles of AD which is one reason you are getting such a negative response.

Finally, well done for doing your advanced test even if it was only to reduce your insurance premiums. The benefit for you, and others, may well be much more than financial.

It is irresponible but others on here think it's perfectly fine to do so.

I don't think I did but it was a while ago and my memory is quite crap.

Supported by AD organisations but not by AD'ers.

There is a stretch here - http://goo.gl/maps/83ot

That was a NSL SC, but is now a 40 which changes into a 50 further on. Yeah I did think why have they done this, but I just got on and accepted it and slowed down.

Thanks, it has done sweet naff all to reduce them though so far. Roll on 14th July when I can give Surety a call!

Dom

[jcochrane]

The only thing that I can think of is more groups betting off their rears and doing something tbh, but anyway, that's for another thread if you want to.

Dom

Of course the question is "do what" the exercise in Bristol was excellent but I not think that as a scheme could be run out across the country and with more participants. The analysis suggests that once they were given a demo by martine and Mr Toad that the driving was more skilful, safer and quicker (whilst remaining legal) than they could achieve themselves and they were then willing to learn.

Groups and the Institute often offer the public the chance to have their driving assessed. I've thought this to be a it of a turn off and sometimes people take it up to impresses how good they are.
I think more demo drives would be more effective but it does need marketing well and we need suitable demonstrators. This thought is backed up by listening to people who used to attend a 6 week course run by my local police traffic centre. The most compelling reason to attend was that at the end the officers would take them on a demo drive. The message from them was that if they wanted to drive like that then to take on board what they had learnt on the course and go out with our iAM group.

[dombooth]

Have I been reading another thread where people have been saying that they drive to the conditions even if that speed is above the limit?

Dom

Link to this thread?

Dom, as has been said before, the safely and legality of speed are two independent issues. Nowhere has anyone disputed the legality, berated anyone for choosing to comply with them, or even said they don't comply them themselves. Never has it been denied that if someone exceeds the speed limit, the total responsibility lies with them. Every time someone chooses to speed they must do so accepting the possible legal consequences, and nobody on this forum would deny that.

Some of the most competent and safest drivers I've has the fortune of being a passenger with, have been those with more 'liberal' views on speed limits. Their driving wouldn't have been any safer if they had chosen to comply with speed limits.

*cough* I was taking the mick, it's this thread.

As I said earlier, people have said they don't comply with them but I'm not going searching through the pages too find it.

Dom

[swatchways]

Things I post on this forum..., are looked at then aren't really taken on board at all

And yet, that blanket resistance and reluctance to consider other views is something you seem to exhibit yourself, as another poster noted above.

As for your comment about IAM not accommodating younger drivers, exasperation rules! You've already been given answers on the IAM forum about this, if you don't like what "the oldies" (your words not mine) do, you have to sort something out yourself, otherwise how are they to know what you want?

My group didn't have anything to my taste when I joined, so I put the effort in and organised something that was. You say you don't have the time, yet in the time you've spent arguing on here you could have happily set up a driving session for your group's younger members or your detailing taster you have mentioned. It's not rocket science, and frankly IMO if we're not prepared to input into things we can't then moan about the lack of provision.

[dombooth]

The only thing that I can think of is more groups betting off their rears and doing something tbh, but anyway, that's for another thread if you want to.

Dom

Of course the question is "do what" the exercise in Bristol was excellent but I not think that as a scheme could be run out across the country and with more participants. The analysis suggests that once they were given a demo by martine and Mr Toad that the driving was more skilful, safer and quicker (whilst remaining legal) than they could achieve themselves and they were then willing to learn.

Groups and the Institute often offer the public the chance to have their driving assessed. I've thought this to be a it of a turn off and sometimes people take it up to impresses how good they are.
I think more demo drives would be more effective but it does need marketing well and we need suitable demonstrators. This thought is backed up by listening to people who used to attend a 6 week course run by my local police traffic centre. The most compelling reason to attend was that at the end the officers would take them on a demo drive. The message from them was that if they wanted to drive like that then to take on board what they had learnt on the course and go out with our iAM group.

Anything. (seriously). In my group there are two people (+me when I have time) that do everything. Any shows we attend/have a stand advertising the IAM those two are always there, very few other people come and help out.

The demo drives thing is a good idea, thanks.

Dom

[dombooth]

Things I post on this forum..., are looked at then aren't really taken on board at all

And yet, that blanket resistance and reluctance to consider other views is something you seem to exhibit yourself, as another poster noted above.

As for your comment about IAM not accommodating younger drivers, exasperation rules! You've already been given answers on the IAM forum about this, if you don't like what "the oldies" (your words not mine) do, you have to sort something out yourself, otherwise how are they to know what you want?

My group didn't have anything to my tastes when I joined, so I got put the effort in and organised something that was. You say you don't have the time, yet in the time you've spent arguing on here you could have happily set up a driving session for your group's younger members or your detailing taster you have mentioned. It's not rocket science, and frankly IMO if we're not prepared to input into things we can't then moan about the lack of provision.

I could organise it possibly, but unless it was on a Sunday I wouldn't be able to attend. My Sundays are precious to me as it's the only time I really have off as such.

Younger members, that's the problem, what younger members! I am the youngest (active) member, the next aged active member is 30 I think.

Dom

[jcochrane]

...People advocating breaking the law is just wrong. It's illegal to drive the wrong way down a one way road, would you do that one too?

Dom

You raise a good point Dom. That is, that there are many regulations regarding driving that advanced drivers generally obey and do not seek to justify non-compliance with even going as far as to make an unfounded link between non-compliance and safety. For example, the statutory requirement for insurance has nothing whatsoever to do with road safety. It merely answers the economic question, who pays? Yet there are various references on this forum asserting that driving without insurance compromises road safety.

Of course, you are free to believe and to claim that non-compliance with traffic regulations is irresponsible. It is difficult to argue with that. Furthermore you can claim that advanced drivers should not be irresponsible.

The difficulty arises when making direct links between compliance and safety.

I haven't seen anything in the posts above that convinces me that speed limits inhibit most drivers from choosing an appropriate safe speed.

Most drivers like to drive at fairly constant speeds they feel comfortable with and this appears not to be the consequence of speed limits but a consequence of human nature and the level of training needed to pass the DSA test.

When you prepared for your IAM test did you notice a significant increase in the variation of your speed over a particular stretch of road? I believe this variation is at the heart of advanced driving. Matching speed to hazards. If one is doing this, mandatory speed limits become superfluous.

More importantly the relentless reduction in limits provides ever decreasing opportunities to drive progressively and safely. I suggest, that is why advanced drivers, are frustrated with limits.

As you are a relatively new driver, decreases in limits have had much less impact on you than others contributing here. You may have a different opinion in 20 years time

So, believing that speeding is irresponsible and not appropriate behaviour for advanced drivers is a point of view that is respectable and indeed supported by the AD organisations.

Directly linking speed limits with safety undermines basic principles of AD which is one reason you are getting such a negative response.

Finally, well done for doing your advanced test even if it was only to reduce your insurance premiums. The benefit for you, and others, may well be much more than financial.

Thank you MGF. What a well thought through contribution. I take my hat off to you sir.

[jont]

There is a stretch here - http://goo.gl/maps/83ot

That was a NSL SC, but is now a 40 which changes into a 50 further on. Yeah I did think why have they done this, but I just got on and accepted it and slowed down.

Pretty much the whole of Derbyshire is an example of abuse of reduced speed limits. Ostensibly it's to stop bikers throwing themselves off the road. Unfortunately I struggle to believe they were doing so at speeds under NSL, or were they under NSL that they were travelling at an appropriate speed for the conditions. Therefore it's very hard to see exactly how the reduced speed limits are supposed to help - except making it much slower going for law abiding motorists by reducing the speed they can choose to travel at and giving less speed headroom for legal overtakes.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

A question for those who are Observers for IAM/RoSPA etc and have no driving qualifications apart from those from the organisation: What advice do you give your associates in terms of the drive you see when on observed runs as opposed to the drive you suggest should be done when they take their test?

The same. I only tutor associates with the aim of getting them a good pass in their advanced test. What they do in their own time is their own affair. One of my most frequent questions to an associate (perhaps I overdo this, but it makes a point) is "what is the speed limit here?" - normally because they've forgotten what it is. Sometimes they're going too fast for legality. Sometimes they could be going faster in safety. Generally they know why I've asked the question, and correct accordingly, at least later on in their tuition.

However, in case you may think I somehow subliminally transmit the message that breaking speed limits is OK, another thing I often say to them is "We're not training you to pass a test here. We're giving you a system to drive by that will make you a safer driver for the rest of your life". Sounds pompous, but none so far have failed to appreciate the point.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

When you prepared for your IAM test did you notice a significant increase in the variation of your speed over a particular stretch of road? I believe this variation is at the heart of advanced driving. Matching speed to hazards. If one is doing this, mandatory speed limits become superfluous.

This...

Finally, well done for doing your advanced test even if it was only to reduce your insurance premiums. The benefit for you, and others, may well be much more than financial.

I agree with this with the exception that Dom claimed the increases in insurance premiums for young drivers were mainly due to speeding offences. They are not, at least not as far as I am aware. I watched an excellent presentation by Insp. Nick Elton of Wiltshire Police last night which clearly showed that young drivers between 17 and 24 are many, many more times more likely to be involved in KSI collisions, but speeding was not the primary cause of those collisions. Insurance premiums go up because insurers measure risk. Risk in their eyes is something that involves them in paying out money. Speeding fines do not cause insurance claims. Collisions do.

[swatchways]

I could organise it possibly, but unless it was on a Sunday I wouldn't be able to attend. My Sundays are precious to me as it's the only time I really have off as such.

Younger members, that's the problem, what younger members! I am the youngest (active) member, the next aged active member is 30 I think.

Dom

So do it - if you create something, and really work at it to keep it going and kindle interest they will come. You'll find many people only have Sundays off - it's hardly a stumbling block. Can you take on the task of sorting one or two of the monthly meets to your taste - that's what I try to do? Of course our events don't all appeal to me, but that's the nature of life - I'm sure some of the events I do don't appeal to others in my group.

[dombooth]

There is a stretch here - http://goo.gl/maps/83ot

That was a NSL SC, but is now a 40 which changes into a 50 further on. Yeah I did think why have they done this, but I just got on and accepted it and slowed down.

Pretty much the whole of Derbyshire is an example of abuse of reduced speed limits. Ostensibly it's to stop bikers throwing themselves off the road. Unfortunately I struggle to believe they were doing so at speeds under NSL, or were they under NSL that they were travelling at an appropriate speed for the conditions. Therefore it's very hard to see exactly how the reduced speed limits are supposed to help - except making it much slower going for law abiding motorists by reducing the speed they can choose to travel at and giving less speed headroom for legal overtakes.

But that's life, it they reduce the limits we have to obide by them.

Dom

[jont]

There is a stretch here - http://goo.gl/maps/83ot

That was a NSL SC, but is now a 40 which changes into a 50 further on. Yeah I did think why have they done this, but I just got on and accepted it and slowed down.

Pretty much the whole of Derbyshire is an example of abuse of reduced speed limits. Ostensibly it's to stop bikers throwing themselves off the road. Unfortunately I struggle to believe they were doing so at speeds under NSL, or were they under NSL that they were travelling at an appropriate speed for the conditions. Therefore it's very hard to see exactly how the reduced speed limits are supposed to help - except making it much slower going for law abiding motorists by reducing the speed they can choose to travel at and giving less speed headroom for legal overtakes.

But that's life, it they reduce the limits we have to obide by them.

And you're happy about that loss of freedom and choice?

[fungus]

I think most will agree that taking advanced training and passing the advanced test resulted in them thinking about the way they drove, which in turn resulted in a more varied approach to hazards based on the potential seriousness of the hazard they are approaching. Their observation also improved which meant that they were assessing situations earlier. They should also be able to match speed to conditions better than the average driver, which has been evident on the few occasions I have been on an ADUK driving day, including an exemplary drive from one member who I believe to be a member of the HPC.

I would recommend that you go on a driving day that's near you. You will find it both fun and educating, and will only cost you your fuel and lunch. It may help you to understand the frustration felt by many who feel that standards are being dumbed down by this continual lowering of speed limits.

Remember this. If you want blind obeyance, keep the population ignorant. Education should teach you to think.